210 carbon with good edge retention and clear shinogi

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Viggetorr

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Looking for a nice 210 gyuto. It is important that the knife has good edge retention (generelly find white #2 to require sharpening to often) and a low bevel with a clear shinogi. At least something where it is easy to find the angle for thinning - I am not confident about thinning knives without a relatively sharp angle below the shinogi line (eg. Mazaki etc). A nice distal taper would also be nice. Certainly don't mind some heft to the spine, but thinner knives could work too.

Preferably carbon clad carbon or monosteel. Stainless clad semi-stainless is as stainless as I'd go, for the right knife. Maximum price about 300 USD.

LOCATION
Sweden

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
200-225

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
About 300 USD, some leeway.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mostly veggies and protein

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Chopping, push cutting, slicing

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Prefer nashiji or kurouchi (or both). Polished would work, too.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Good edge retention a priority
 

Runner_up

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Why not send a note to Heiji? His prices direct are very reasonable, his heat treat on the Iwasaki spicy carbon is top shelf. He offers migaki or KU finish on his carbon clad knives. His stainless/semi stainless combo is also incredible and has outrageously good edge retention. The carbon will lose it's bite, but stropping occasionally brings it back to razor sharp, and a literal 1-2 minutes on a finishing stone is enough to bring the edge back to screaming.

His wide bevel knives definitely have a very clear and defined shinogi.
 

Garm

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Have you seen the stainless clad AS from Hinoura at Cleancut?
I haven't used one myself, but it seems to tick at least a few of your boxes right at the maximum end of your budget.
Blue Super at 64 rockwell should have very good edge retention.
 

Viggetorr

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Why not send a note to Heiji? His prices direct are very reasonable, his heat treat on the Iwasaki spicy carbon is top shelf. He offers migaki or KU finish on his carbon clad knives. His stainless/semi stainless combo is also incredible and has outrageously good edge retention. The carbon will lose it's bite, but stropping occasionally brings it back to razor sharp, and a literal 1-2 minutes on a finishing stone is enough to bring the edge back to screaming.

His wide bevel knives definitely have a very clear and defined shinogi.
That seems like a great option. I'm not familiar with "Heiji special swedish steel" (what it said on their site), how does it compare to blue steels?

I'm having a little trouble navigating his site, you don't happen to have his contact info?

Have you seen the stainless clad AS from Hinoura at Cleancut?
I haven't used one myself, but it seems to tick at least a few of your boxes right at the maximum end of your budget.
Blue Super at 64 rockwell should have very good edge retention.
Yes, it's one of my top candidates along with their Wakuis. If possible I'd prefer carbon clad though, which is why I've not jumped at it!
 

panda

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heiji does not have strong taper, and the carbon (same steel as shigefusa, just different heat treat) is not much better retention than white.
 

Nemo

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If you want an agressive taper, you are mainly looking at Sanjo knives or a custom. The only other Japanese knife with a significant taper that I have is Kurosaki Syousin Chiku Migaki. His Shizuku line (R2) has less taper (but still slightly present). I'm not sure about the taper or the grind in his Raijin AS line or in the Ku version of the Syousin Chiku.

Wide bevel and aggressive taper is quite hard to do, so there are not too many examples that I am aware of.

Are you happy to look after convex wide bevels? If so, look at:

1) Yoshikane Tsuchime SKD. Stainless clad semistainless. Decent taper. Flat profile. Not a tall blade. Large hammered pattern (I like it a lot, YMMV). Mine is a pretty beefy knife with great food release and thin behind the edge given its grind (but not in comparison to a really thin knife). Steel is a pleasure to sharpen and has pretty decent retention. Nice spine and choul rounding on mine.

2) Yoshikane Amekiri. Mine is white2 but it's now available in SKD. Stainless clad, Nashiji pattern. Quite a light, thin knife with a decent taper. Also a flat profile and not a very tall knife. Nicely finished spine and choil [edit: on subsequent closer inspection, the bevels on this knife actually look pretty flat rather than convex].

3) You may want to look into Kurosaki Syousin Chiku but apart from the santoku, the Migakis are all sold out. I don't know how similar the grind and the taper on the Ku versions are. These knives are stainless clad AS. Fairly curved profile.u

If you need flat/ concave wode bevels,

1) My Hinoura is white2, with a bit of a taper and a slightly concave wide bevel. I don't know if the AS vesions are ground the same or not.

2) you may want to approach Mr Watanabe to see if he can provide a knife to these specifications. Might be a bit more than 300 bucks, though.

If the taper is optional, then we have heaps more options.

Edited to add: Although all of these knjves have some taper, I wouldn't call any of them aggressively tapered, which really just reinforces the idea that aggressive taper and wide bevel are hard to do together.
 
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Viggetorr

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Thanks for the suggestions Nemo, I will look more closely at them! I already have a Kurosaki so preferably something else, and have been looking at Yoshikane! The SKD looks great, if it wasn't SS-clad I probably would have gotten it already.

The taper is nice to have, but not a must. Edge retention and ease of finding angle for thinning is more important The pics below is an example of what I mean by easy of finding the angle for thinning. In the top picture I could simple lay the bevel flat against the stone and grind away, while in the bottom one it is harder to thin behind the edge without scratching up the entire blade road. Would that change your recommendations?

Looking for a choil that looks more like this:

And less like this:
 

Nemo

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The taper is nice to have, but not a must. Edge retention and ease of finding angle for thinning is more important The pics below is an example of what I mean by easy of finding the angle for thinning. In the top picture I could simple lay the bevel flat against the stone and grind away, while in the bottom one it is harder to thin behind the edge without scratching up the entire blade road. Would that change your recommendations?
And less like this:
In that case, you probably don't want a convex wide bevel like the Yoshikane. Not that it's hard to learn how to thin it, but it is (only slightly) more complex than a flat or slightly concave bevel.

If taper is not so important, have you looked at Tanaka B2 Nashiji? It is SS clad but the B2 is nice to sharpen.

You may want to look at Shiro Kamo Ku. Ironclad Ku AS at a very cheap price. Mine is a Shinko Selian Sujihiki from KnS. It's a pretty flat wide bevel (not sure about the gyuto or the other versions which sometimes go by the monniker "black dragon").
 
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Viggetorr

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In that case, you probably don't want a convex wide bevel like the Yoshikane. Not that it's hard to learn how to thin it, but it is (only slightly) more complex than a flat or slightly concave bevel.

If taper is not so important, have you looked at Tanaka B2 Nashiji? It is SS clad but the B2 is nice to sharpen.

You may want to look at Shiro Kamo Ku. Ironclad Ku AS at a very cheap price. Mine is a Shinko Selian Sujihiki from KnS. It's a pretty flat wide bevel (not surenabout the gyuto or the othernversions which sometimes go by the monniker "black dragon").
Those both seem like good options, if a little less refined than optimal. Regarding Wat, how is his bevels regarding my pictures preferences above. I've been under the impression he does not really have a flat/convex secondary bevel for easy sharpening. Otherwise both him and Toyama could be viable options (as I understand they're basically the same).
 

Nemo

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Those both seem like good options, if a little less refined than optimal. Regarding Wat, how is his bevels regarding my pictures preferences above. I've been under the impression he does not really have a flat/convex secondary bevel for easy sharpening. Otherwise both him and Toyama could be viable options (as I understand they're basically the same).
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "refined"?

No idea how Watanabe's kurochi wide bevel gyutos are ground. I have his stainless clad blue2 petty which looks to be a pretty flat ground wide bevel to me.

I need to make a correction- I just had a closer look at my Yoshikane Amekiri, and the wide bevels look pretty flat to me, so the skd version may suit you.
 

Viggetorr

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Is this choil about right for you?
Looks like it! What is it? :)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "refined"?
As in basic. I think it is reflected in their price, though, so it's still a fair deal.

No idea how Watanabe's kurochi wide bevel gyutos are ground. I have his stainless clad blue2 petty which looks to be a pretty flat ground wide bevel to me.

I need to make a correction- I just had a closer look at my Yoshikane Amekiri, and the wide bevels look pretty flat to me, so the skd version may suit you.
I'll have to do some digging then!

That's good to know, might have to pop down to CC and look at them!
 

milas555

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Maybe Munetoshi 210 KU ???
I would definitely recommend - a good knife at a good price ;-)
 

captaincaed

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Yoshikane hammered SKD is semi stainless, has an interesting surface texture, good edge holding, easy to sharpen, easy to thin, comes in under budget. In stock at Epicurean Edge, 10% forum discount.
I bought this for a friend, then 2 for myself. Really like them.

Carbon Knife Co has a nashiji version if you prefer that finish.
 
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