A quick word on Jiro supply from Strata

[MarcelNL]

try and speak with the man, after a while...this almost sounds as being temporarily placed in the 'window seat' , a Japanese colleague told me if someone in the office made a booboo they'd be placed there to 'contemplate' for a few weeks, to then be invited for a conversation with their manager, if the insights shared were good enough (self reflection) they'd be reinstated. The window seat was basically a PA announcement you made an error,

 

[tostadas]

I agree completely with this comment, and calling Jiros behaviour premadonna is uncalled for IMO.
He sells a knife that is already with a nice polish, if a customer buys it and wants to go a step beyond they can ask for the service or do themselves if they wish, but a retailer just doing it for the heck of it I don't agree, Yes they paid for the product already but not for personal use, they bought it for resale and that is different.

What if after the work done on the knife it doesn't perform as intended and a review goes and bashes a product he spent a lot of time creating?

I dont consider polishing to be the same as geometry/grind modifications. To me, it's less of a change to the original knife than say, the spine and choil rounding performed by K&S (which I don't mind at all). Unless the original finish of the knife is one of the selling points, then I can see how there would be an argument otherwise. But in this case, I think it's similar to an auto dealership polishing and waxing a car before sale.

 

[MarcelNL]

the issue is that the maker is the only one who has a say about what goes and what not, in Japan craftsmanship is highly honored and offending someone is easy even when you know the proper protocol.

 

[Giovanny Torres]

I dont consider polishing to be the same as geometry/grind modifications. To me, it's less of a change to the original knife than say, the spine and choil rounding performed by K&S (which I don't mind at all). Unless the original finish of the knife is one of the selling points, then I can see how there would be an argument otherwise. But in this case, I think it's similar to an auto dealership polishing and waxing a car before sale.

I don't doubt Strata does a good job and my comments are not directed at them, they seem to be respected by the members on this forum and I will trust that to do business with them in the future. Is more like the previous comments said, if they allow him to work on the blade then they have to allow every partner to do work on the blades and that can end up with undesirable feedback towards Jiros reputation IMO.

 

[spaceconvoy]

the issue is that the maker is the only one who has a say about what goes and what not, in Japan craftsmanship is highly honored and offending someone is easy even when you know the proper protocol.

bull biscuits

If they want to retain that level of control they're free to sell directly to customers. Retailers provide value of their own, and this antiquated racist nonsense is just gaslighting to justify treating them like doormats instead of partners.

 

[Duukt]

When a bladesmith sells just the blade to the retailer, do they still have some restrictions on what kind of handles can be installed or is it an 'anything goes' kind of scenario?

Judging by some handles I've seen at retailers, I think it's the latter but surely some of them must be offending the creator no?

 

[MarcelNL]

bull biscuits

If they want to retain that level of control they're free to sell directly to customers. Retailers provide value of their own, and this antiquated racist nonsense is just gaslighting to justify treating them like doormats instead of partners.

that is one way to see it, I think that in Japan they see things differently

 

[tostadas]

I don't doubt Strata does a good job and my comments are not directed at them, they seem to be respected by the members on this forum and I will trust that to do business with them in the future. Is more like the previous comments said, if they allow him to work on the blade then they have to allow every partner to do work on the blades and that can end up with undesirable feedback towards Jiros reputation IMO.

If it's disclosed as "aftermarket polish" or something like that, the buyer can make the decision for themselves. I'm just saying that I've seen it elsewhere too. For example, right now on cleancut, theres a Manaka that's being auctioned off with an upgraded polish. They list the price as 279 retail + ??? for the polish. Current bid is over 500, so there is definitely a market for this work.

https://www.cleancut.eu/auctions/ad/knives,1/manaka-mirror,8

 

[spaceconvoy]

that is one way to see it, I think that in Japan they see things differently

I've lived and worked in Japan for about two and a half years. Yes, many people see it like this, but it's just an excuse for abusive behavior. The anecdote about the 'window seat' is fine in theory, but often the mistake was something unspoken. You might never be told what you did wrong, and would be expected to figure it out and correct yourself or face more silent ostracism.

Usually the people who behave this way are incapable of admitting they've made a mistake. In this twisted worldview, even articulating their expectations is a threat to their fragile authority. If you never reveal your position, you can never be challenged or held accountable.

The majority of the younger generation do not think this way, though they often must tolerate it, and the more successful companies like Nintendo and Honda certainly do not operate this way. Are they somehow less Japanese? There are different cultural ways to communicate expectations, but punishing others for not adhering to your unspoken demands is just abuse.

 

[MarcelNL]

that almost sounds as if you spent plenty of time in that seat personally.
I did not say it is a great or a very friendly way of treating people, I was merely pointing out how the maker-who in my view is the only one with a say on what happens to his work- may perceive things.

The 'old' way in Japan is that you try to prevent the unspoken, and that is difficult. I don't expect that craftsmen work like Honda or Nintendo, they are relics from the past and we have to deal with that in their way or we miss out on their great products.

 

[WiriWiri]

bull biscuits

If they want to retain that level of control they're free to sell directly to customers. Retailers provide value of their own, and this antiquated racist nonsense is just gaslighting to justify treating them like doormats instead of partners.

I don‘t think anyone‘s denying that retailers can add value, but this idea that control of who someone chooses to sell to is some kind of bizarre, primitive practice from ‘the East’ is more than a little ludicrous. Asking for someone not to modify your (hand made) product before sale seems eminently respectable compared to many common practices used by big brands in the US and Europe to deign who‘s respectable enough to stock their products

Not convinced that anyone should be bandying about stuff about antiquated (racist) nonsense either, particularly when a big part of the appeal of J Knives is often based around those very same traditional/antiquated practices, of diligent and respectful apprenticeship.

Anyhow, fairly convinced that anyone reading the OP will be more than appreciative of Evan’s measured and insightful apology. I’ll doff my imaginary hat for facing up to an honest mistake and dealing with a difficult situation as well as possible. Hope it all works out for you

I‘m not even going to try and get involved in all this projecting national/generational stereotypes on one distant blacksmith. For all I know Jiro Nakagawa could actually boast secret Welsh roots, love show tunes and be a fabulously tolerant woke bloke*

*albeit with a phobia of his own reflection in polished blades

 

[Bodine]

I think Evan spelled everything out in his post. I am grateful for that.
All this side bar conjecture is just that, conjecture.

 

[Moooza]

Nice knife @RockyBasel! I think I got it's twin. Might have to send it to Strata to be fixed as well.

I think Strata was forced to write that apology...

 

[Jason183]

If you received more positive feedbacks from your customers then there’s nothing wrong with it.
Liked others have said, TF knives seems to have inconsistent grind. Some looks thin behind the edge, some looks thick. If there’s one vendor always selling thinner TF, I’m willing to buy from them.
Jiro seems not easy to work with, he should be selling his knives liked what TF did with his knives, so it’s up to customers to buy or not buy

 

[spaceconvoy]

that almost sounds as if you spent plenty of time in that seat personally.
I did not say it is a great or a very friendly way of treating people, I was merely pointing out how the maker-who in my view is the only one with a say on what happens to his work- may perceive things.

The 'old' way in Japan is that you try to prevent the unspoken, and that is difficult. I don't expect that craftsmen work like Honda or Nintendo, they are relics from the past and we have to deal with that in their way or we miss out on their great products.

I know you're trying to belittle me, but yes I have spent plenty of time in that metaphorical seat, though never in Japan. That was how my parents operated, which is why I react so strongly when I see the same type of abuse elsewhere. It's not-coincidentally why I gravitated to Japan in the first place over two decades ago, when this type of thing was even more prevalent than today and I was still stuck in this mindset. But I avoided these problems in Japan because I'm pretty good at anticipating unspoken expectations and placating unpredictable people, thanks to my folks. And honestly the bar for foreigners is so much easier to clear that it's almost insulting.

One last thing I'd like to point out is how your logic is strikingly similar to those who justify domestic abuse: "Sure it's not good behavior, but that's the way they are so you have to tolerate it or they will withdraw their love/expert craftsmanship." No thanks, you can keep your wedgy half-finished knives.

I don‘t think anyone‘s denying that retailers can add value, but this idea that control of who someone chooses to sell to is some kind of bizarre, primitive practice from ‘the East’ is more than a little ludicrous. Asking for someone not to modify your (hand made) product before sale seems eminently respectable compared to many common practices used by big brands in the US and Europe to deign who‘s respectable enough to stock their products

Not convinced that anyone should be bandying about stuff about antiquated (racist) nonsense either, particularly when a big part of the appeal of J Knives is often based around those very same traditional/antiquated practices, of diligent and respectful apprenticeship.

Anyhow, fairly convinced that anyone reading the OP will be more than appreciative of Evan’s measured and insightful apology. I’ll doff my imaginary hat for facing up to an honest mistake and dealing with a difficult situation as well as possible. Hope it all works out for you

I‘m not even going to try and get involved in all this projecting national/generational stereotypes on one distant blacksmith. For all I know Jiro Nakagawa could actually boast secret Welsh roots, love show tunes and be a fabulously tolerant woke bloke*

*albeit with a phobia of his own reflection in polished blades

You're missing the point. I have no problem with a craftsman who wants make certain demands of their resellers. The racist part is the suggestion that Japan somehow doesn't have a functional system of contract law, and that it's perfectly reasonable for terms of business to be dictated by an unspoken tradition.

 

[WiriWiri]

There are a lot of words flying around here, but I’m not sure where racism comes into anything,

Nor why we‘re talking about unspoken tradition or something Japan specific. Pretty sure that, say, a Porsche dealer giving new vehicles a custom paint job and advertising the difference on Instagram wouldn’t expect to be first in line for new shipments. Nor is the idea of precious artisans/craftsmen/soup nazis limited to Japan. I wish we’d give all these national stereotypes a rest tbh.

 

[kbright]

Perhaps the issue is with communication styles. If Evan had "asked" Jiro if he would object to some polishing, Jiro would probably agree to it. But he may be somewhat offended that it was done without asking.

Most of Japan manufacturing industries are strongly focused on quality control and improvements. I was trained in Six Sigma and kaizen continous improvement processes. A part of this mindset is feedback from customers. There are frequent comments and comparisons about Fit and Finish of (some) Japanese knives, and we have seen comments that if the finish was better, they would need to charge higher prices. To some, knives are just cutting tools, but for others there is appreciation for the art.

 

[MowgFace]

Most of Japan manufacturing industries are strongly focused on quality control and improvements. I was trained in Six Sigma and kaizen continous improvement processes. A part of this mindset is feedback from customers.

Gotta have the VOC!!! Im a manufacturing guy myself so to be on my knife forum reading about 6S and Kaizen tickles me. Poka Yoke!

 

[chiffonodd]

I can imagine how crushing this feels from Strata's perspective. I admire the commitment to chalk it up to a learning experience and to keep moving forward. At the same time, I understand why the maker might feel the need to clamp down a bit. (Although pulling products seems a bit extreme to me, given that this was obviously a well intentioned mistake!).

Hope the business relationship can be repaired in the future.

 

[Delat]

It's a pretty common expectation in the US that what you buy from a retailer is an unaltered product direct from the manufacturer. Even for knives, if I buy a zKramer from Sur la Table, I'm expecting the factory product, not a finish that the local store decided was better. In the j-knife world, retailers that alter the knife tend to call it out: custom handle, choil/spine rounding, extra sharpening, etc. So I can see Hitohira and/or Jiro being surprised that their product was being altered as a default without notification to either them or the consumer.

Personally I would've expected a simple correction, not an embargo. But we don't know what happened behind the scenes. Very possibly a different retailer complained and Hitohira had to publicly apply some punitive measure in order to maintain an appearance of impartiality. This could certainly be the case if Hitohira has an MSRP policy. Or I guess it's equally possible Jiro was PO'd to the point of pulling his knives, who knows?

Either way Strata's apology/explanation comes across as very professional (love their instagram too) and I've added them to my vendor bookmarks as I was unaware of them before this thread.

 

[nwshull]

My understanding is that Jiro is somewhat of a unique craftsman because he's adept at different areas of a knife production that is traditionally done by different craftsman types. Traditionally, blacksmiths forge a blade, sharpeners make a shape, handle makers make a handle, polishers polish it etc. He's studied a lot of these different skills. I can see why he sees his product as having a unique single origin. I also don't think anyone in this situation meant offense. I don't think any of us can add anything constructive to the situation, other than hoping that both these small businessmen can find a way forward to be successful and keep delivering great products to our community.

 

[outofgamut]

I think there are situations where no one is 'at fault' but people are still hurt about what happened.

I know nothing about the value system of Japanese artisans but I am not surprised to infer that what happened may have caused significant upset. Upset that may require a 'punishment' to restore what was broken. Yeah, I'm expressing myself somewhat convoluted, I know.

What I'm trying to say is: I think what happened on Evan's side was done without any ill intentions - but it was still received as hurtful. And the consequence may lead to help heal the injury. I'd hope that this may be a temporary thing to then start anew again.

 

[Bensbites]

What would happen if we (fans of strata) write to jiro on strata’s behalf?

 

[Delat]

What would happen if we (fans of strata) write to jiro on strata’s behalf?

Probably a bad idea. You don’t want to cause even more trouble for Strata or give the appearance that Strata is causing ill will or disparaging anyone, or agitating for people to support them in hopes of a different outcome. Strata has accepted responsibility, so best to just let it play out the way Strata has apparently worked out with Hitohira.

 

[cotedupy]

Not getting into whether the response was an overreaction or not, but...

Do we not think that the two reasons given sit slightly at odds here? 1.) I want my work to be sold as I created it. 2.) You have failed to charge for something that has added value.

Frankly this strikes me more as a case of wounded pride, rather than anything to do with mysterious protocol issues.

(Just to give my 2c on something I know nothing about, but that's what the internet's for isn't it? )

 

[juice]

Most of Japan manufacturing industries are strongly focused on quality control and improvements

TFTFTFTFTF

 

[ian]

Do we not think that the two reasons given sit slightly at odds here? 1.) I want my work to be sold as I created it. 2.) You have failed to charge for something that has added value.

I don’t think they are at odds. If you charge extra, you probably indicate more emphatically that this is not Jiro’s original work, so it’s less like you’re trying to say “this is a Jiro BNIB” when it’s not.

More likely, though, one complaint came from Jiro and the other from competing vendors.

 

[cotedupy]

I don’t think they are at odds. If you charge extra, you probably indicate more emphatically that this is not Jiro’s original work, so it’s less like you’re trying to say “this is a Jiro BNIB” when it’s not.

More likely, though, one complaint came from Jiro and the other from competing vendors.

Yep... I imagine that may well be the case. (And I suspect it might possibly have resulted in slightly wounded pride. Which I'm sure is something that exists across different cultures!)

 

[nwshull]

Not getting into whether the response was an overreaction or not, but...

Do we not think that the two reasons given sit slightly at odds here? 1.) I want my work to be sold as I created it. 2.) You have failed to charge for something that has added value.

Frankly this strikes me more as a case of wounded pride, rather than anything to do with mysterious protocol issues.

(Just to give my 2c on something I know nothing about, but that's what the internet's for isn't it? )

Don't want to overly mythologize, but there is the idea of wabi sabi within the Japanese aesthetic. Its on the surface a rougher more rustic appearance, but requires knowledge of the product to notice signs of mastery. Having never seen a Jiro in person but admiring the pictures, I could see why one could appear to be within this aesthetic.

At the same time, polishing knives is a known value and generally perceived as having a higher value by those not seeking out a specific aesthetic. Not wanting to speak for someone else, I sort of understand how from a certain point of view both present problems, especially together if it becomes seen that one can both alter the original intended aesthetic and 'add value'. Which could drive more demand for the altered products. ...You see where this is going.

 

[Mikeadunne]

TFTFTFTFTF

please let this devolve into a tf thread...