Anyone Have Information on La Pyrénées Sharpening Stones?

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MSicardCutlery

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Google hasn't got much information on them, and a search here didn't turn up a lot either, just passing mentions, so I figured I'd start a thread. I'm wondering if anyone has ever used them and what their general impressions have been. How the composition compares to the BBW (garnets?) would be great information too.
 
Google hasn't got much information on them, and a search here didn't turn up a lot either, just passing mentions, so I figured I'd start a thread. I'm wondering if anyone has ever used them and what their general impressions have been. How the composition compares to the BBW (garnets?) would be great information too.
@cotedupy would be the right person to answer this kind of questions....


I do indeed have one of these, though my one is probably slightly finer than the versions used by Ardennes Coticules. Apart from that, what I'm about to say should give you an idea...

While AC call these stones 'La Pyrenees', they're more commonly known by the name of the village where the quarry and production is - Saurat. So if you search for 'saurat sharpening stone' you'll get more info. Such as here, including a video if you speak French...(?)

https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/92323-french-hones-4.html

The stone I have is what they call Saurat 'Genre Levant' and it's a hard, slow and relatively fine schist. The ones AC use are the same thing but I understand a little faster, coarser and probably slightly softer. Though don't expect it to be a fast stone in the grand scheme of things - schist whetstones are generally pretty slow. Nor would it really self-slurry; I'd recommend starting off an atoma slurry and refreshing the surface when required, as it will burnish. The effective 'grit' level will depend significantly on the surface finish.

The abrasive is silica rather than garnet. Though schist is quite micacaeous and in many stones micas can do interesting things when polishing cladding, as they often roll around a Mohs hardness level below that of core steel but above mild steel or iron.

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Hope that helps!
 
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I do indeed have one of these, though my one is probably slightly finer than the versions used by Ardennes Coticules. Apart from that, what I'm about to say should give you an idea...

While AC call these stones 'La Pyrenees', they're more commonly known by the name of the village where the quarry is - Saurat. So if you search for 'saurat sharpening stone' you'll get more info. Such as here, including a video if you speak French...(?)

https://sharprazorpalace.com/hones/92323-french-hones-4.html

The stone I have is what they call Saurat 'Genre Levant' and it's a hard, slow and relatively fine schist. The ones AC use are the same thing but I understand a little faster, coarser and probably slightly softer. Though don't expect it to be a fast stone in the grand scheme of things - schist whetstones are generally pretty slow. Nor would it really self-slurry; I'd recommend starting off an atoma slurry and refreshing the surface when required, as it will burnish. The effective 'grit' level will depend significantly on the surface finish.

The abrasive is silica rather than garnet. Though schist is quite micacaeous and in many stones micas can do interesting things when polishing cladding, as they often roll around a Mohs hardness level below that of core steel but above mild steel or iron.

---

Hope that helps!
Would you please clarify what has silica rather than garnet as abrasive? Did you mean Saurat 'Genre Levant'? I am under the impression (and it says so on their web site) that AC coticule stones have garnet as abrasive.
 
Would you please clarify what has silica rather than garnet as abrasive? Did you mean Saurat 'Genre Levant'? I am under the impression (and it says so on their web site) that AC coticule stones have garnet as abrasive.


Yep... so yellow Coticule and Belgian Blue Whetstone have garnet as their primary abrasive*, whereas almost all other natural whetstones are based on silica, including the Pyrenees-Saurat stone.

The reason I mentioned Ardennes Coticule is because they sell a combination stone with Belgian Blue Whetstone on one side and French Saurat stone / La Pyrenees on the other. And when OP referred to it as 'La Pyrenees' rather than 'Saurat' I assumed it's because he had come across it as one of these AC combis.


Screenshot 2023-05-03 152752.jpg



* Coticules and Belgian Blue do have silica in them too, but generally one would consider them as having primarily garnet abrasive. The notable exception would be the 'hybrid' side of the Les Latneuses vein, which is almost 100% silica.
 
Yep... so yellow Coticule and Belgian Blue Whetstone have garnet as their primary abrasive*, whereas almost all other natural whetstones are based on silica, including the Pyrenees-Saurat stone.

The reason I mentioned Ardennes Coticule is because they sell a combination stone with Belgian Blue Whetstone on one side and French Saurat stone / La Pyrenees on the other. And when OP referred to it as 'La Pyrenees' rather than 'Saurat' I assumed it's because he had come across it as one of these AC combis.


View attachment 241103


* Coticules and Belgian Blue do have silica in them too, but generally one would consider them as having primarily garnet abrasive. The notable exception would be the 'hybrid' side of the Les Latneuses vein, which is almost 100% silica.
Are the La P's manufactured? "Consists of layers glued together" At least I thought they were. I think there were 2 stones marketed as La P's over the years, but were slightly different?
 
Are the La P's manufactured? "Consists of layers glued together" At least I thought they were. I think there were 2 stones marketed as La P's over the years, but were slightly different?


Ah there you go, you've spotted something there that I hadn't noticed before, but kinda slightly surmised in my posts above...

'La Pyrenees consists of layers glued together, each with a thickness of 7mm.'

Ardennes Coticule appear to be using the term 'La Pyrenees' to refer specifically to the combination stone that they sell, comprised of half BBW and half Pyrenean Saurat stone, glued together. The Saurat side of it on it's own is not manufactured, it's natural, like BBW.

The whole thing - a piece of natural BBW glued to a piece of natural Saurat - is what they're calling 'La Pyrenees'.
 
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Ah there you go, you've spotted something there that I hadn't noticed before, but kinda slightly surmised in my posts above...

'La Pyrenees consists of layers glued together, each with a thickness of 7mm.'

Ardennes Coticule appear to be using the term 'La Pyrenees' to refer specifically to the combination stone that they sell, comprised of half BBW and half Pyrenean Saurat stone, glued together. The Saurat side of it on it's own is not manufactured, it's natural, like BBW.

The whole thing - a piece of natural BBW glued to a piece of natural Saurat - is what they're calling 'La Pyrenees'.
Ah yeah I read that wrong also... Forgetting they refer to that combi as La P. Not the La P itself. The latter made it sound like the La P was layered and glued by itself. 😆 (I just need to learn to read)

Hope you've being doing good! @cotedupy
 
I've got one of the Ardennes La Pyrenees (Saurat) / BBW combo stones. This has been my experience with it...

The stone is advertised at ~1200 grit aggression, which makes one imagine it's a medium-grit natural stone, like a Binsui, Washita, etc. However, like the Finnish Wastikivi, it's actually just a fairly clean, surprisingly fine/slow-cutting piece of schist/slate that's been surfaced with deep, linear grooves that help it to act like a file. If you ever make the mistake of lapping one, you'll quickly discover that these aren't mid-grit stones by nature, but more by surface treatment.

The Ardennes La Pyrenees/Saurat stones (With their factory grooves.) cut best by drawing the knife across the stone in a single sweep, just as one would with a honing steel. This can remove metal more quickly than a normal fine stone, but it doesn't feel like how a medium-grit natural stone normally does. It's just sort of a stone file. The edges tend to be ragged with the factory lapping, though on the right steel, with lengthy experimentation, a very toothy and keen edge can be achieved... Unfortunately, since these stones aren't even vaguely flat, this can be a frustrating, and difficult to repeat experience out of the box. Again, everything I write also applies to the Wastikivi.

It works best on simpler/low-wear-resistance knives... 10xx, or maybe 12C27/420HC in the 50's HRC. The coarse factory lapping tears up the edge of a hard, Shirogami blade, and is not effective on anything with any volume of harder carbides.

If you wear the lapped grooves on such a stone down with sharpening, or make the mistake of lapping it yourself, it will no longer be something masquerading as a mid-grit stone. After I lapped my La Pyrenees/Saurat on an Atoma 140 when I got fed up with its lack of flatness, it became a very slow/ineffective finishing stone that cut infinitely more slowly, and left a - surprisingly - slightly finer, though very bland edge than the BBW strapped to other side of it. Honestly, it just feels like sharpening on a random piece of found slate if you've worn or erased the factory surfacing.

I've since tried resurfacing it with loose 80-grit SiC, and this still isn't anywhere near enough to replicate the factory surface finish. I think you'd have to use at least 24-grit, or coarser. It's a pretty extreme texture that's needed to make such a stone ape a mid-grit.

I have found two videos on the manufacture of these stones, for anyone who is interested:

Pierre a aiguiser naturelle des Pyrénées

Le dernier fabricant de pierre à aiguiser de France - Météo à la carte

These were an interesting adventure into sharpening stones, but not one I would repeat.

Hope this helps.
 
Sorry for taking so long to get back to this thread. Thanks everyone who took the time to reply, especially @cotedupy and @Steampunk with their extensive write ups.

After considering everything steampunk's write up, I've decided this probably isn't the ideal combination for me. I think I may just settle for the standard BBW, or possibly a coticule combo stone.
 
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Sorry for taking so long to get back to this thread. Thanks everyone who took the time to reply, especially @cotedupy and @Steampunk with their extensive write ups.

After consider everything steampunk's write up, I've decided this probably isn't the ideal combination for me. I think I may just settle for the standard BBW, or possibly a coticule combo stone.

Probably the best choice. When you do, make sure to get a slurry stone. It does work better than using a mini diamond plate for generating slurry... I'm not sure how many people on this forum use the 'DiluBlue' or 'DiluCot' methodology of progressive slurry generation/dilution with their BBW's or Coti's for knives (Alas, the Coticule.be site where this was best discussed seems to be no more. It was a fountain of old Coticule knowledge. :( ) , but it's where the real power of these stones reside.

There is also quite a bit of variation in the cutting characteristics of BBW and Coti's based upon their vein and strata. Some will make you wonder what the big deal is (Especially if you don't have a good slurry stone to go with, and know how to work with the mud.), and others are pretty incredible... As always, it's about matching the stone with the steel, and how you prefer sharpening.

Hope this helps.
 
fine/slow-cutting piece of schist/slate that's been surfaced with deep, linear grooves that help it to act like a file. If you ever make the mistake of lapping one, you'll quickly discover that these aren't mid-grit stones by nature, but more by surface treatment.
If you wear the lapped grooves on such a stone down with sharpening, or make the mistake of lapping it yourself, it will no longer be something masquerading as a mid-grit stone.


This is interesting, I didn't know that about the stones on the AC combis. It sounds then like my 'Genre Levant' stone is actually pretty similar if not the same, just without the grooves. A hard and slow stone, and definitely above the 1-2k that AC quote.

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@MSicardCutlery - I'd certainly agree with your hunch and what SP says: go for a BBW, or a BBW x Coti combi. Swerve the LaP.

If going for a coticule too it's worth pinging them a message to let them know you'd want one more suited to knives than razors. Cotis vary massively; I have at least one that cuts faster and finishes coarser than an SG500, and others that will finish a razor to a very high level. Of the veins they're currently exploiting try to go for either La Veinette or if you have the cash - Les Latneuses. Though the latter does not come as a combi with BBW, it's (naturally) bonded to what they call a 'hybrid' layer, which is a very hard and fine chert, kinda like novaculite.
 
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