Jf1026
KKF Supporting Craftsman
Cpm 10v gyuto passaround
- Thread starter Blank Blades.
- Start date
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I need anyone that wants in to dm me their address so i can finish making the order list.
I'm doing it right now so i need it basically now.
The list has been edited onto the first post for easy access. But here it is copy and pasted.
Passaround order:
@Godinlhi
@Gshep91
@Malcolm Johnson
@M1k3
@Barmoley
@mrmoves92
@timebard
@fortheloveofmoar
@jedy617
@Justinv
@brimmergj
@nopomo
@kpham12
@Juna
@Jf1026
@SwampDonkey
So, again each person has about has a week to use it, each person should reach out to the next person to get their shipping details worked out.
Would love to hear peoples feedback once they try the blade. @ethompson currently has it so it will be going out from him soon.
Passaround order:
@Godinlhi
@Gshep91
@Malcolm Johnson
@M1k3
@Barmoley
@mrmoves92
@timebard
@fortheloveofmoar
@jedy617
@Justinv
@brimmergj
@nopomo
@kpham12
@Juna
@Jf1026
@SwampDonkey
So, again each person has about has a week to use it, each person should reach out to the next person to get their shipping details worked out.
Would love to hear peoples feedback once they try the blade. @ethompson currently has it so it will be going out from him soon.
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I've got everything boxed up and on its way to the next participant! I'll have some time tomorrow in an airport and will consolidate my notes / thoughts then and post a detailed write up.
Thanks @Blank Blades. & the knife’s buyer for putting this blade out for a pass around. It takes an immensely generous spirit to let a group of internet stranger fondle one’s expensive custom knife for 6ish months before taking delivery oneself. Likewise for the maker it must be nerve-wracking to send one’s product out to 20 people who’s goal is to thoroughly dissect it’s performance. My review will be in 4 parts - performance / grind, fit & finish, steel, and final impressions.
Performance / Grind
Right out of the box it was clear that this is a no-nonsense workhorse. The balance is slightly forward of a pinch and the knife feels heavy and dense for what it a relatively compact package all things considered. The current Zeitgeist around KKF is certainly heavier grinds and this fits right into that trend. There is good linear taper leading to a very thin tip. Based on my assement the grind resembles a wide bevel with a smoothed over shinogi - similar to Toyama in some ways. Consistency throughout the grind is exceptional, I can detect no high / low spots and suspect that this grind was refined very extensively on stones rather than a belt grinder. The edge is just thin enough to nail-flex on the front 2/3 of the knife and probably would toward the back as well if I had the guts to press harder. As expected, the apex was clean and rather sharp straight from @Blank Blades.
Cut feel is extremely authoritative. With grinds this thick I am usually weary of edging, carrot cracking, and needing excess force to cut through veg - I’m firmly in the middleweight > workhorse camp generally. That said, I was very pleased with the performance here. The tapering leads to a very precise tip that easily handled vertical and horizontal cuts in shallot and onion with ease. I was pleasantly surprised by the performance on thick cold carrots. While there was a little brrraaappp action at the end of each cut in thicker cross sections, the cut itself was smooth and didn’t feel wedgey. This is a knife that carries it’s mass extremely gracefully. The closet comparison I can make is to an even beefier Kippington’s workhorse grind - the highest praise I can offer for a convex knife. The approach is more symmetrical and slightly thicker, but is also very impressive on the board. As is, this knife outperforms the vast majority of workhorse gyuto have tried, including those from some of the most sought after makers on KKF.
For my preferences, I’d like to see this beefy geometry pushed just a bit further. Some added asymmetry and modest thinning to push the behind the edge thickness to the absolute limit I think would turn this from an exceptionally good gyuto into something truly awe-inspiring. I have a hunch this steel can handle a very extreme geometry and I’d love to see what type of giggles it would induce then.
Im very flexible when it comes to edge profiles, and found this one natural to use for all tasks.
Fit & Finish
Nothing but goodness to report here. If this is @Blank Blades. ’s idea of a working finish no one would be dissatisfied with his typical satin. Choil and spine is tastefully rounded and very well polished. Handle fit is exceptional with good straight install. The shape of the handle is well done but incorporates more taper than I personally find comfortable, I’d like a bit more girth to carry through the handle, even as a slimmer handle guy. But, the build quality is without question so, again, my only critiques are a matter of taste.
Steel
I’m not a high alloy lover, my favorite steels are almost all very simple carbons run to a very hard HRC. That said, I always enjoy testing the modern stuff (although 10v isn’t that modern I suppose). Even treated at very high hardness and being thin behind the edge, I never felt like I needed to baby the blade. I used the blade extensively, though only at home, for several days and noticed no edge degradation whatsoever. By this time with a simple carbon blade I’d be considering a touch up. While I didn’t get to test this extensively, I’d have no trouble believing that this will hold a workable apex 3+ times longer than even my favorite hard carbons (currently a tie between Raquin 145sc and Milan 135cr3).
Even though it didn’t need it, I could help myself and sharpened it. I want to get this out of the way for all future pass-around members - if you don’t have diamond or CBN stones please don’t attempt to sharpen this knife, you’ll be both disappointed and be setting up the next member of the passaround for the same. The steel is unquestionably hard and glassy feeling, which is exactly what I’d expect. This is a far cry from the type of knife that you wave in the general direction of a whetstone and it suddenly is absurdly sharp. Even with freshly lapped / conditioned diamond stones, the sharpening was slow compared to simple carbons. That said, I had an easier time with this than Magnacut and I wouldn't say this is a fault in the steel. Just a tradeoff.
While technically not stainless, I noticed no patina development during my time with the blade.
Final Impressions
This is easily the most impressed I’ve been with a knife in some time. It is everything one would want from a stripped-down thoroughbred workhorse gyuto and nothing you don’t need. As I mentioned in the performance section, I would out the cutting performance on par with some exceptionally well regarded western makers. I was very impressed by the CPM10v steel as well, though potential buyers need be aware that diamond or CBN stones a requirement for maintaining the edge. As a tool, I have no critiques that aren’t simply a matter of taste (slightly larger handle, slightly thinner grind, etc.). This is a far cry from my usual preferences for wrought-clad simple-carbon low-bevel knives, but I’m seriously considering jumping in and getting one for myself. If I was still daily-ing in the restaurants’ kitchens, I’d have already bought two.
Performance / Grind
Right out of the box it was clear that this is a no-nonsense workhorse. The balance is slightly forward of a pinch and the knife feels heavy and dense for what it a relatively compact package all things considered. The current Zeitgeist around KKF is certainly heavier grinds and this fits right into that trend. There is good linear taper leading to a very thin tip. Based on my assement the grind resembles a wide bevel with a smoothed over shinogi - similar to Toyama in some ways. Consistency throughout the grind is exceptional, I can detect no high / low spots and suspect that this grind was refined very extensively on stones rather than a belt grinder. The edge is just thin enough to nail-flex on the front 2/3 of the knife and probably would toward the back as well if I had the guts to press harder. As expected, the apex was clean and rather sharp straight from @Blank Blades.
Cut feel is extremely authoritative. With grinds this thick I am usually weary of edging, carrot cracking, and needing excess force to cut through veg - I’m firmly in the middleweight > workhorse camp generally. That said, I was very pleased with the performance here. The tapering leads to a very precise tip that easily handled vertical and horizontal cuts in shallot and onion with ease. I was pleasantly surprised by the performance on thick cold carrots. While there was a little brrraaappp action at the end of each cut in thicker cross sections, the cut itself was smooth and didn’t feel wedgey. This is a knife that carries it’s mass extremely gracefully. The closet comparison I can make is to an even beefier Kippington’s workhorse grind - the highest praise I can offer for a convex knife. The approach is more symmetrical and slightly thicker, but is also very impressive on the board. As is, this knife outperforms the vast majority of workhorse gyuto have tried, including those from some of the most sought after makers on KKF.
For my preferences, I’d like to see this beefy geometry pushed just a bit further. Some added asymmetry and modest thinning to push the behind the edge thickness to the absolute limit I think would turn this from an exceptionally good gyuto into something truly awe-inspiring. I have a hunch this steel can handle a very extreme geometry and I’d love to see what type of giggles it would induce then.
Im very flexible when it comes to edge profiles, and found this one natural to use for all tasks.
Fit & Finish
Nothing but goodness to report here. If this is @Blank Blades. ’s idea of a working finish no one would be dissatisfied with his typical satin. Choil and spine is tastefully rounded and very well polished. Handle fit is exceptional with good straight install. The shape of the handle is well done but incorporates more taper than I personally find comfortable, I’d like a bit more girth to carry through the handle, even as a slimmer handle guy. But, the build quality is without question so, again, my only critiques are a matter of taste.
Steel
I’m not a high alloy lover, my favorite steels are almost all very simple carbons run to a very hard HRC. That said, I always enjoy testing the modern stuff (although 10v isn’t that modern I suppose). Even treated at very high hardness and being thin behind the edge, I never felt like I needed to baby the blade. I used the blade extensively, though only at home, for several days and noticed no edge degradation whatsoever. By this time with a simple carbon blade I’d be considering a touch up. While I didn’t get to test this extensively, I’d have no trouble believing that this will hold a workable apex 3+ times longer than even my favorite hard carbons (currently a tie between Raquin 145sc and Milan 135cr3).
Even though it didn’t need it, I could help myself and sharpened it. I want to get this out of the way for all future pass-around members - if you don’t have diamond or CBN stones please don’t attempt to sharpen this knife, you’ll be both disappointed and be setting up the next member of the passaround for the same. The steel is unquestionably hard and glassy feeling, which is exactly what I’d expect. This is a far cry from the type of knife that you wave in the general direction of a whetstone and it suddenly is absurdly sharp. Even with freshly lapped / conditioned diamond stones, the sharpening was slow compared to simple carbons. That said, I had an easier time with this than Magnacut and I wouldn't say this is a fault in the steel. Just a tradeoff.
While technically not stainless, I noticed no patina development during my time with the blade.
Final Impressions
This is easily the most impressed I’ve been with a knife in some time. It is everything one would want from a stripped-down thoroughbred workhorse gyuto and nothing you don’t need. As I mentioned in the performance section, I would out the cutting performance on par with some exceptionally well regarded western makers. I was very impressed by the CPM10v steel as well, though potential buyers need be aware that diamond or CBN stones a requirement for maintaining the edge. As a tool, I have no critiques that aren’t simply a matter of taste (slightly larger handle, slightly thinner grind, etc.). This is a far cry from my usual preferences for wrought-clad simple-carbon low-bevel knives, but I’m seriously considering jumping in and getting one for myself. If I was still daily-ing in the restaurants’ kitchens, I’d have already bought two.
Yes. I definitely don't recommend anyone bother even trying to sharpen this on traditional whetstones.
That said at least on my venevs, the ammount of time i spend puting an edge on my 10v stuff after everything is done, is usually one pass on each side with my f240 (400 jis), then just remove the burr on my f400, and follow that with 1 micron diamond spray for a little refinement, and finally plain leather to be sure there isn't a wire edge. All things considered, its usually pretty quick. But i haven't tried bonded diamond besides my venevs. So idk how fast or slow that would be.
For those that want to know what this steel is like on traditional stones. Since ive had plenty of opportunity to test sharpening it on just about every kind of stone there is. Its glassy to the extreme. The edge it leaves, feels wierd and smoothed over. Even if it gets sharp. It doesnt have proper bite. So besides the edges degrading much faster using traditional abrasives, i also don't recommend it because the edge just doesnt give the kind of bite you would actually want, and the sharpening experience is bad.
Anyway. Thank you for the kind words! Yeah, i had taken my stuff even thinner up not directly behind the edge since directly behind the edge was zero ground (then a secondary bevel added) but maybe 10mm up but people seem to really be into workhorse type stuff right now so I've adjusted to making ones along that line. But i would certainly have no objection to making even more midweight-laser type stuff.
Oh, and your observation is correct. My full convex is basically a combination of a wide bevel, with the shinogi rounded.
So…. I hope ethompsons review is not going to be the bar by which our reviews are measured because
1. I am a humble home cook and a beginner at that.
2. I don’t right reel gud.
But, I really do appreciate the generosity of the pass arounds
1. I am a humble home cook and a beginner at that.
2. I don’t right reel gud.
But, I really do appreciate the generosity of the pass arounds
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2019
- Messages
- 3,904
- Reaction score
- 8,389
My reviews usually go like this: cut good, me likey, or, no cut good me no likey
I'm very excited to try this out. I've been leaning more and more workhorsey lately and there are so few outside of the simpler carbons, it sounds right up my alley.
Dear @Godinlhi, @Gshep91 and @Malcolm Johnson, please don't sharpen it.
Sincerely,
Someone you don't have to listen to
Sincerely,
Someone you don't have to listen to
I won’t be sharpening it. I wasn’t prepared to be first in the pass around and don’t have the proper stones yet anyways.
Knife arrived today! Can’t wait to put it to use. I’ll be in contact with the next user and have it on its way the end of next week.
Yeah. You were the one outside the contiguous us. So its going to you, then the west coast.
I figured that was the case. I do appreciate you including me in the pass around!
SABOL BROTHERS
KKF Supporting Craftsman
Guys, can someone define a "workhorse" for us briefly? Is it about blade grind? Or is it about steel toughness/edge retention? Or is it something else?
Ehh... I interpret it as knife that "works" for you e.g.
1. Weight & forward balance of the knife "helps" cut
2. Convexity to "help" food release
I think most often it definitely has at least a component of grind. I’d say at least 4mm on the spine with some distal taper and a convex grind that carries some of its weight pretty far down rather than something closer to a flat grind.
A knife with stable steel that can take abuse is usually just called a beater I think.
A knife with stable steel that can take abuse is usually just called a beater I think.
There's no set definition and often folks use it as "a knife they use everyday" while others have a more set definition.
Generally I think of a workhorse as thicker spined ~4mm and above, with a thicker usually convex grind, or wide bevel+convex etc. that puts some meat behind the edge that it isn't going to feel super delicate or risk snapping like a Shibata type laser. The extra weight and forward balance of the blade assist the cut and the convex let's it slide through without resistance. I've come to prefer that weighty, smooth cutting over a very lightweight, nimble laser.
According to Maxim, "work horse" started with a Kato and a chef:
SABOL BROTHERS
KKF Supporting Craftsman
So, using a low-toughness steel doesn't make much sense, does it? What about something like 4V/V4E? This is an excellent PM steel that can take a lot of abuse as we can see from Bladesports competitions.
I find Z-wear to have excellent balance of toughness, sharpenability and edge retention. So similar steels would make a great choice.
You can send me two to test and I'll let ya know
SABOL BROTHERS
KKF Supporting Craftsman
Haven't tried Z-Wear yet, but based on Larrin's testing it looks like an amazing steel at around 62 Rc.
- Joined
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Definitely would be a nice choice. Same with magnacut
63-64 convex Z-Wear from @MSicardCutlery , this thing is amazing, tough as a nail (probably tougher) and cuts on top in my knives. Would love to try blank blades too.
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He’s one of the few Japanese knife YouTuber I enjoy, really good stuff with all the interviews
SABOL BROTHERS
KKF Supporting Craftsman
Anything in Z-Wear/4V/V4E will always be much better than any blue or white paper steel.
Why are we back to this argumentment again? I still like my white 2 Ashi Ginga, a good knife is a good knife
Toughness has nothing to do with a workhorse. Like was mentioned. A thick behind the blade made to be abused is a beater. Rather than a workhorse.
In the kind of definition of workhorse that defines a kind of grind. Its more about it having a grind, and weight that lets it fall through food. The spine will be thicker at the handle, with a lot of distal taper to a thin tip.
But even though the spine is thicker, a workhorse should still be very thin at the edge.
