Denka vs Toyama vs Maz

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FishmanDE

FishmanDE

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I’ve been fortunate enough to find myself in a position to compare some 240mm Wa gyutos:
TF Denka (Loan via @thebradleycrew)
SS Clad Toyama
JNS Migaki Maz

I will be using and sharpening all of these and giving my feed back from a novice/ moderate sharpener and a professional chef. While understanding that Mazaki is a different steel, I feel as though it may be worth while to have yet another conversation on just how good a value those blades may be. I will say, as of right now, I have sharpened the Maz and the Toyama, and both are a pain to sharpen. But I was in shock at
how frustrating the Toyama was to sharpen. The bur flipped for days, but I guess that speaks to the toughness of the steel.

Sharpening Progression:

Shapton Glass 500g
King 1k
King 6k

I also have/ used
Shapton glass 2k
Shapton glass 4k
JNS 3-4K Med Soft

I will sharpen the Denka tomorrow and post feedback on that and use of all 3 as well as pictures.

Disclaimer:
I have no idea what I’m talking about and barley a grasp on what I’m doing, so feel free to ignore this thread.
 
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FishmanDE said:
I’ve been fortunate enough to find myself in a position to compare some 240mm gyutos:
TF Denka (on Loan)
SS Clad Toyama
JNS Migaki Maz

I will be using and sharpening all of these and giving my feed back from a novice/ moderate sharpener and a professional chef. While understanding that Mazaki is a different steel, I feel as though it may be worth while to have yet another conversation on just how good a value those blades may be. I will say, as of right now, I have sharpened the Maz and the Toyama, and both are a pain to sharpen. But I was in shock at
how frustrating the Toyama was to sharpen. The bur flipped for days, but I guess that speaks to the toughness of the steel.

Sharpening Progression:

Shapton Glass 500g
King 1k
King 6k

I also have/ used
Shapton glass 2k
Shapton glass 4k
JNS 3-4K Med Soft

I will sharpen the Denka tomorrow and post feedback on that and use of all 3.

Disclaimer:
I have no idea what I’m talking about and barley a grasp on what I’m doing, so feel free to ignore this thread.
Click to expand...
Is the mazaki BBQ or his previous one ?
 
Your Toyama is hard to sharpen? Really???
Odd. Mine have been like butter.

Disclaimer: I don’t especially know what I’m doing either.
 
Carlo said:
Your Toyama is hard to sharpen? Really???
Odd. Mine have been like butter.

Disclaimer: I don’t especially know what I’m doing either.
Click to expand...

It definitely doesn’t feel as glassy as the Maz, but I find it harder to properly de bur. Today I’m going to try it again at a higher angle and see if that helps
 
I love the feel of the Toyama blue on the stones, would be unsurprising for it to not feel great if you are low angle enough to be grinding at the stainless cladding though.
 
Bigbbaillie said:
I love the feel of the Toyama blue on the stones, would be unsurprising for it to not feel great if you are low angle enough to be grinding at the stainless cladding though.
Click to expand...

again, I’m far from a professional sharpener, I’m just relaying my short experience with these. Something else to keep in mind is none of these are new knives and in fact, they have all been modified in one way or another. The Toyama in particular I just received on Friday and am currently still in the process of putting my own edge on.
 
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First impressions of steel.

As expected, all 3 are wonderful. The Toyama and TF both felt exceptional. That said, I personally felt the Toyama gave a bit better feed back once she got movin and grovin.

First Carrot Cuts:

The TF, who has had the proper secondary TF treatment, was a clear winner. Most likely due to it being a bit thinner. That said, the Maz preformed just as well as the Toyama IMO. Please keep in mind this was light home use. I will further elaborate on the Maz vs Toy in a professional environment over the next couple of weeks.
 
I had persistent issues deburring Mazaki myself at first, and it was only after going all the way down to a SG220 and forming a really big burr on both sides and going through a full, slow and gradual edge polish that Ive gotten it to where I can do touch up work and get clean edges every time.

if Im honest I dont prefer the super high hardnesses Mazaki and TF are running white steel, but I like the knives I have enough otherwise that I dont care that much. I find other treatments, e.g. Hinoura and Yoshikane, to be more practical, but that's just me. It's not enough to change my impression of the knives.

Toyama is just absolutely one of the best knives out there IMO.
 
IsoJ said:
For the price tag Denka should be clear winner, Toyama far behind second and Maz the third 😁
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Well, that’s exactly what I was trying to figure out with all this; Is it all worth the price tag? I personally don’t think the toyama or Maz are THAT far behind the TF in regards to performance. At this point, I’m not sure if I’d splurge to pick up a TF
 
One thing I was very disappointed with about the TF was the lack of distal taper. It wasn’t bad, but for the price tag, I expected better.
 
I haven't tried Denka so can't comment on that. I've had several Maz and for my experience the KU's(CKC)had a bit better HT in terms of sharpening feel but not much. One migaki ootb needed to take some steel of to make it work better. For Toyamas, I like the feedback more than Maz. Toyama takes a tad longer to deburr than Maz but nothing too significant. For me when I started to sharpen and I had Toyama SS clad, I noticed that it helped when I first raised a good consistent burr on one side and then went on from that. If it has a normal zero or close to zero edge, it might be a bit more difficult to feel consistent burr if you compared it Maz (I assume that the Maz isnt as thin bte as Toyama)
 
FishmanDE said:
again, I’m far from a professional sharpener, I’m just relaying my short experience with these. Something else to keep in mind is none of these are new knives and in fact, they have all been modified in one way or another. The Toyama in particular I just received on Friday and am currently still in the process of putting my own edge on.
Click to expand...
I was just commenting based on the picture and the shallow sharpening towards tip. I also know there are a handful of people on here that start sharpening at really low angles especially on wide bevels so cladding would effect the feel a lot.
 
Yeah, the sharpening Mark on the Toyama looks liked it’s sharpened at 10-12 degrees angle, it definitely passed the stainless cladding line, unless you’re purposely trying to thin it. if you just sharpen around 25-30 degrees per side, you only touching the edge steel, IME, blue steel is as easy to sharpen liked white, only took a little bid more time.
 
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You probably mean for these angles to be for both sides together, not for each individually. If you’re hitting the cladding of a knife (with a reasonable amount of exposed core) while doing a 10-12 degree angle per side, the knife is unusably thick. On my Toyama nakiri, you need something like a 3 degree angle per side to hit cladding.

Then again, measuring angles is kinda pointless.

I also think it’s super unlikely that hitting cladding is making it harder to deburr though. That stainless steel would have to somehow travel multiple mm to get stuck on the edge. If someone informed about metallurgy actually thinks that’s a possibility, though, I’m happy to be corrected.
 
Once more, this thread wasn’t an exercise to critique sharpening. This is just my opinions on these knives. You’re free to disagree with me, as a lot of you already have. But IMO, there isn’t enough difference between the Three that would warrant the drastic difference in price. Just my opinion.
 
FishmanDE said:
One thing I was very disappointed with about the TF was the lack of distal taper. It wasn’t bad, but for the price tag, I expected better.
Click to expand...
They are variable, and for me taper at the tip is most critical. My 210 and 195 Denka's have OK DT and I have several Kato's if I need a DT fix. Personally I think extreme DT is over-rated.
 
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