josemartinlopez
我會買所有的獨角獸
Come to Ulaanbaatar and you can test drive everything. You might remember my history with Posti Group from last year!
Denka vs Toyama vs Maz
- Thread starter FishmanDE
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After a certain price and performance point, differences are marginal at best. You pay more for other reasons, whatever they might be. @tcmx3 and @thebradleycrew alluded to this in another thread where they said that once they became proficient at sharpening they felt that descent knives sharpened well are as good as expensive knives. There is a lot of truth to this. Once you can modify a knife to suit your preferences most good knives in $300-$400 range can hang with knives 2, 3 times the price. TFs or toyama for that matter are not known for crazy distal taper, so price is not a factor here just not how these knives are designed.
If you really like toyama, it just clicks with you, maybe the profile or whatever else, you'll have a hard time making mazaki into it. So in such a case price difference would not matter as much. Both can clearly substitute each other in general. On the other hand if you really like a lot of distal taper, toyama is probably not for you and mazaki might be better.
Bigbbaillie
Well-Known Member
What he said, my favorite term for it I've seen is "grabability." You aren't paying for the best performance necessarily once you get past 300-400, you are paying for the little details that for whatever reason make you pick it over the others based on your preferences.
My yoshi easily cuts just as good as my Toyama, and its half the price when compared brand new. Also have a $50 tojiro nakiri that cut better out of the box than my 240mm Mazaki gyuto.
Still won't stop me from eventually buying a honyaki though.
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user 16756
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well said.
and yes, while you can improve a knife (sometimes by a lot, which is definitely how I feel about my Mazaki), as they say you cant coach height.
Ive been clear that for me if I spend more on a gyuto then on some level I expect it to be readily evident that either more time was spent on it or the materials are a higher price or harder to work with. that's my criteria, more than anything else. FWIW I think Mazakis are probably a little underpriced for the quality of knife you get, and that because I got my Toyama during a sale I paid a price that I think is justified by its superior finish and use of blue steel rather than white, which across the board seems to cost more.
and ironically my favorite knife is still my kato
If the TF is modified and the Wat is modified...what are you testing here except for the steel? Maybe profile?
Once the grind is different, it's different. And it's one of the easiest things to alter. Surface texture is the only thing easier I can think of.
Once the grind is different, it's different. And it's one of the easiest things to alter. Surface texture is the only thing easier I can think of.
Bazes does this for me. Fine grain steel takes any edge, thin blade, forged hollow, flat profile, convex bevels with frosted Kasumi all for food release, PLUS a non-reactive iron cladding. And a handle just the right size. And a usable finger notch. And it's not blingy. Just so many little details cared for. My Yoshi cuts just a little easier, but Bazes has my X factor.
Toyanabe is probably at the limit for value and cutting performance. After this you do get diminishing returns. With one or two outliers.
on the short list this year hopefully
JimMaple98
Well-Known Member
probably because it costs twice that of Toyama
RockyBasel
KKF Sponsor
I can only guess the outliers
MrHiggins
Senior Member
Everything is so personal. I've tried a couple of 240 Denkas and neither really clicked with me.For the price tag Denka should be clear winner, Toyama far behind second and Maz the third
I've had a lot of Mazakis and for the most part, I've loved them.
Toyama, though, for me, is the real stand out. Everything about them work for me (I haven't tried the SS version, only iron clad).
To each their own.
Carl Kotte
Senior Member
Everything is so personal. I've tried a couple of 240 Denkas and neither really clicked with me.
I've had a lot of Mazakis and for the most part, I've loved them.
Toyama, though, for me, is the real stand out. Everything about them work for me (I haven't tried the SS version, only iron clad).
To each their own.
TF has more taper in the grind that your Toyama: usually good taper for a rather narrow spine: something like 3 - 2.4 - 1.8 - 1. It's a really progressive taper which is kinda rare where most knives don't have much of any from before mid-blade to 25mm before the tip or so.
Your Toyama probably is very thick out of handle, relatively thick still at heel, but then narrows down quickly before mid-blade and keeps that way until the last 25mm or so. There isn't a lot of taper in the part of the blade that works the most.
Mine experience with 210mm units mind you.
Maz should have more real taper than TF by a fair margin though. Didn't have one first hand to verify, but spine shots tell a different story than Toyama.
Just saying - not criticizing your POVs.
Great thread!!
RockyBasel
KKF Sponsor
With Toyama - there can be some variation from knife to knife - my 270 SS clad blue is reasonably thin at the tip, but my 270 dama is a beast at 280-290 gm - and less tapered at the tip
but incredible cutters! Great construction
but incredible cutters! Great construction
Corradobrit1
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I get the feeling looking at pics that Jiro has a decent grind taper. Can't say with certainty as I've never inspected one in person.
They seem to nail many things down well. Never cared for the profiles I saw myself though. I'm sure they're a pretty great buy.
I have an iron clad Toyama and a SS clad Watanabe. Although the 2 are quite similar in many ways, I like the performance of the SS clad Watanabe more for it being a bit thinner behind the edge. I also feel the Watanabe steel is little harder than the Toyama's but it might just be variations from batch to batch.Everything is so personal. I've tried a couple of 240 Denkas and neither really clicked with me.
I've had a lot of Mazakis and for the most part, I've loved them.
Toyama, though, for me, is the real stand out. Everything about them work for me (I haven't tried the SS version, only iron clad).
To each their own.
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Indeed. Although SS clad, Toyama I had was more than thin enough behind the edge, and went through everything pretty "laserish" for its thickness at spine. Barely felt resistance even halving decent sized onions. Only regrets is to never had to sharpen it before selling. The OOTB edge was best in class.
Then again, as I pointed out myself, spine gets pretty normal thickness where one uses the blade most, so one goes in hand with the other.
These are all great knives, can't go wrong. I've had multiples of Maz, Toyama, and Denkas. I like the way they all cut, but they are all different. Maz knives have changed a lot over the past few years. His style and designs have varied widely and to some extent, dramatically, where as the Toyama and Denka lines are longstanding in their shape, style, and general performance (there are always exceptions). For me, after owning a 210, 240, and 270 of each of the blades from each of the three makers, I found the Denkas were the ones I went for the most. Mid-weight, SS construction but with KU/hammered finish, and for such a hard steel, really easy to maintain and sharpen. Even thinning the SS wasn't too bad. To me, it's a winner through and through for every day use. It also helps that the profile is arguably (again, IMO) the most classically shaped of the three which I think appeals to my senses.
