Espresso nerds in the house?

[doneeb]

old-school levers are pretty damn cool.

Do it. I’ve had a La Pavoni for 8 years and absolutely love it. The thing is bulletproof, has a small footprint, looks great, and kicks out as good or better espresso than anything I’ve encountered.

 

[WPerry]

One of these days, I'll actively search for a good deal on something like a La Pavoni as a travel machine. I've toyed with the idea of lugging around my "extra" E61 (first gen Quickmill Anita), but at the end of the day, it's still too damn big and too damn heavy for me to bother.

 

[OkayMode]

I’d say a manual lever could work for espresso at least like a Cafelat Robot/Flair 58 etc. Some way to steam milk could be something like a nanofoamer pro.

If I were you, I would do Breville. you might get lazy with manual levers. There are a lot more things you can play with on a Breville.

I’ve been a big fan of the 9barista. Started with that and the 1zpresso k ultra (I’d probably start with the j ultra next time). Can go from deciding I want a shot to drinking it in 4-7 minutes, foot print is about the size of a small moka pot. It’s a heat powered spring lever, so pretty fool proof. You can get fancy with removing it from the heat for things like descending profiles otherwise it gives roughly a straight 9bar with a brief preinfusion.

Only downsides is that it doesn’t do milk, and while doing 2 shots is fine you won’t be doing 7-8, but the nice thing is I don’t have to worry about preheating gear like with the manual levers.

As mentioned the brevilles are probably a good option to try. Available very cheaply used, just don’t be tempted to use the pressurized portafilters

I personally find those portable lever machines like the Flair 58 really fiddly to use, having used my friend's for a few days while visiting. They can crank out good espresso, but it's a process that I wouldn't find enjoyable on a daily basis. Even with the electric heater, ideally you need to preheat the water chamber with boiling water a couple times. You'd need a stovetop steamer or a frothing wand to do your milk, and wands just can't compare to actual steamed milk.

I would recommend against a Gaggia Classic unless you want to tinker and mod it. A PID is almost a necessity, and even then the tiny boiler is a limiting factor for lighter roasts and longer shots. Breville/Sage are good options, I used one for a few years, though I'm not a huge fan of the 54mm machines. Not as much aftermarket support for 54mm. The thermoblock steam on them is also pretty underwhelming, takes a long time and hard to get good results with.

I don't know what UK prices are like, but you'd probably looking at a $1500+ machine here in the US for something that can grow with you

You could also try one of the vintage home levers....

Well okay, so i've now done a substantial amount of research, come to some conclusions, and noted some considerations to help tailor things down to what would be best for me.

My espresso based drinks of choice are flat white/cortado, so if i'm getting something capable of making espresso I want to be able to steam milk properly.

I'll only be making espresso for me and my girlfriend at any one time.

I have a Timemore 078 (should have gotten the S in retrospect), but I also have a 1Zpresso K Plus which will handle espresso, so I think i'm good for grinders. I'm sorted for scales too.

A Breville (Sage in the UK) double boiler is going to be way too big for our London apartment kitchen, so that's off the table (no pun intended).

A modded La Pavoni Europiccola would be very cool for the form and size factor, but from what I have read it might be more demanding from a faff/workflow/paying attention perspective than I am prepared to tolerate when i'm making a daily coffee whilst juggling other things before starting work first thing in the morning. The burn risk from the exposed boiler is also a negative considering my girlfriend already gets annoyed by having to watch out for sharp knives, and other maintenance-related things that I can be quite fastidious about in the kitchen. On the other hand, these seem to have a cult following who are adamant they're not that onerous once you get the hang of it, plus the steaming capabilities look decent, so I can be persuaded.

I like light roasts, so it seems like a Gaggia Classic might not be the best fit for me because of the small boiler - presumably the Rancilio Silva is therefore a better choice then after doing similar mods to what would be required for the Gaggia.

What do we think of the Profitec Go? Seems to be quite popular and tick a lot of boxes for the price (PID as stock, 58mm portafilter, adjustable OPV, fast warm up time, good temp stability...) Negatives are that it's still quite big for the space available.

I think i'll be looking for a modded La Pavoni when all is said and done...

 

[ethompson]

Well okay, so i've now done a substantial amount of research, come to some conclusions, and noted some considerations to help tailor things down to what would be best for me.

My espresso based drinks of choice are flat white/cortado, so if i'm getting something capable of making espresso I want to be able to steam milk properly.

I'll only be making espresso for me and my girlfriend at any one time.

I have a Timemore 078 (should have gotten the S in retrospect), but I also have a 1Zpresso K Plus which will handle espresso, so I think i'm good for grinders. I'm sorted for scales too.

A Breville (Sage in the UK) double boiler is going to be way too big for our London apartment kitchen, so that's off the table (no pun intended).

A modded La Pavoni Europiccola would be very cool for the form and size factor, but from what I have read it might be more demanding from a faff/workflow/paying attention perspective than I am prepared to tolerate when i'm making a daily coffee whilst juggling other things before starting work first thing in the morning. The burn risk from the exposed boiler is also a negative considering my girlfriend already gets annoyed by having to watch out for sharp knives, and other maintenance-related things that I can be quite fastidious about in the kitchen. On the other hand, these seem to have a cult following who are adamant they're not that onerous once you get the hang of it, plus the steaming capabilities look decent, so I can be persuaded.

I like light roasts, so it seems like a Gaggia Classic might not be the best fit for me because of the small boiler - presumably the Rancilio Silva is therefore a better choice then after doing similar mods to what would be required for the Gaggia.

What do we think of the Profitec Go? Seems to be quite popular and tick a lot of boxes for the price (PID as stock, 58mm portafilter, adjustable OPV, fast warm up time, good temp stability...) Negatives are that it's still quite big for the space available.

I think i'll be looking for a modded La Pavoni when all is said and done...

If you're a bit handy, modding a LP isn't hard at all. At its core they're very simple machines after all. I have no qualms with the steaming capability of mine, but doing multiple milk drinks in a row is a bit of a faff given you have to heat it up quite a bit to get great steam pressure and it's a single boiler.

I typically drink it straight, which makes it a fairly streamlined operation. I can typically pull 3-4 shots before I leave in the morning in 12 minutes or so. On the weekends I will usually make a single cortado or flat white after a few shots to start, so don't have to deal with a cool down. But pulling back to back milk drinks would be a bit of a pain - would definitely need to pull the espressos first then steam the milks together and pour at the same time. Workable but not ideal.

Love my LP and have no issues getting terrific results and the footprint is impossible to argue with in my apartment. But as soon as I have the room and budget for a full coffee station I'll probably get a full size spring lever and a Decent as the workflow on those when dealing with milk drinks or guests is just better.

 

[ehhh]

Pulling back to back milk drinks is probably difficult for any single boiler, but it's possible that you could pull both shots first, the boiler recovers while you prep the second puck, then steam one pitcher of milk for two drinks after. I couldn't find much info on the Profitec Go in this use case, but I only did a quick search.

You could also look into the Lelit Mara X, it seems to have great reviews, great temp stability, and a relatively small footprint at a fair price. Heat exchangers can be very temp stable if tuned well and it sounds like the Mara X is tuned well in my brief research. The concern with HX machines is a rising temp profile, but imo that's better than a boiler that can't keep up.

 

[OkayMode]

pulling back to back milk drinks would be a bit of a pain - would definitely need to pull the espressos first then steam the milks together and pour at the same time. Workable but not ideal.

Pulling back to back milk drinks is probably difficult for any single boiler

Back to back milkers aren’t an issue for me, it’s just my gf and I almost all of the time!

I didn’t spot the Odyssey Argos had a steamer - looks promising?

 

[ethompson]

Back to back milkers aren’t an issue for me, it’s just my gf and I almost all of the time!

I didn’t spot the Odyssey Argos had a steamer - looks promising?

The Argos is a pretty great addition to the compact lever market I think. A lot nice modern features in a very streamlined element package. Like any new manufacturer, they're plagued with delays but they seem to be handling them as well as one could hope. If not for the lengthy delivery timeline right now I'd have probably bought one rather than sinking a ton of time and effort into rebuilding my modded la pavoni honestly. As a single boiler it'll have the same limitations for milk drinks as a pavoni, but seems like their thermal management is a little better so a less extreme version. The ability to switch between manual and spring lever is super awesome also.

 

[OkayMode]

The Argos is a pretty great addition to the compact lever market I think. A lot nice modern features in a very streamlined element package. Like any new manufacturer, they're plagued with delays but they seem to be handling them as well as one could hope. If not for the lengthy delivery timeline right now I'd have probably bought one rather than sinking a ton of time and effort into rebuilding my modded la pavoni honestly. As a single boiler it'll have the same limitations for milk drinks as a pavoni, but seems like their thermal management is a little better so a less extreme version. The ability to switch between manual and spring lever is super awesome also.

I waited 10 months for my Timemore, I think I might have a fetish for a little delayed gratification

 

[aaoueee]

Anyone else here obsessively practice their steamed milk pour until reaching some vague level of consistency/competence when making espresso drinks? It was a lot harder to learn than I expected--probably took me about 9 months of making a few drinks daily to figure out.

 

[mengwong]

Very nice! Now do a swan

 

[aaoueee]

Very nice! Now do a swan

I'm afraid that will likely take another 9 months of practice I'll get back in touch then!

 

[MarcelNL]

I never was interested in latte art, for one because it adds nothing to the drink other than a first time wow but more because it is a steep learning curve which time I rather invest in roasting.

 

[Vertigo]

I never was interested in latte art, for one because it adds nothing to the drink other than a first time wow but more because it is a steep learning curve which time I rather invest in roasting.

I feel the same way about plating food. Like why take the time to make the plates look good, it adds nothing to the meals besides that initial wow factor and at the end of the day, it all looks like a turd in a gas station bathroom.

 

[aaoueee]

I never was interested in latte art, for one because it adds nothing to the drink other than a first time wow but more because it is a steep learning curve which time I rather invest in roasting.

I wouldn't say it adds "nothing" -- the steamed milk requires a somewhat specific texture and, if that texture is a preference for someone, it creates a more delicious drink. For me, there is nothing worse than a blown out foamy mess ruining good espresso.

 

[doneeb]

I wouldn't say it adds "nothing" -- the steamed milk requires a somewhat specific texture and, if that texture is a preference for someone, it creates a more delicious drink. For me, there is nothing worse than a blown out foamy mess ruining good espresso.

I think you’re talking about two different things. Properly steamed milk is important, sure, but making a heart or whatever is purely aesthetics. Some people enjoy the aesthetics, but it doesn’t change the taste of the drink.

 

[aaoueee]

I think you’re talking about two different things. Properly steamed milk is important, sure, but making a heart or whatever is purely aesthetics. Some people enjoy the aesthetics, but it doesn’t change the taste of the drink.

Not sure I think the drinks I make where I nail a design taste much better. Fair point though.

 

[Greenbriel]

Anyone else here obsessively practice their steamed milk pour until reaching some vague level of consistency/competence when making espresso drinks? It was a lot harder to learn than I expected--probably took me about 9 months of making a few drinks daily to figure out.View attachment 318966

Very nice job! I have mastered (or at least gained competency) in a load of random things, but so far latte art completely eludes me. My problem is inconsistent steaming (I have trouble getting the "wet paint" consistency) and I feel like I'm getting worse! Buying an espresso machine completely changed my level of admiration for good baristas!

 

[Greenbriel]

I feel the same way about plating food. Like why take the time to make the plates look good, it adds nothing to the meals besides that initial wow factor and at the end of the day, it all looks like a turd in a gas station bathroom.

Who's hungry?!

 

[aaoueee]

Very nice job! I have mastered (or at least gained competency) in a load of random things, but so far latte art completely eludes me. My problem is inconsistent steaming (I have trouble getting the "wet paint" consistency) and I feel like I'm getting worse! Buying an espresso machine completely changed my level of admiration for good baristas!

Indeed. I didn't appreciate the amount of skill that goes into an excellent $5 cappuccino at a local coffee shop. After I bought my current machine in 2019 I made and consumed a lot of very bad espresso and very bad steamed milk before becoming somewhat proficient in both categories.

 

[ethompson]

I take my latte art inspiration from one of the worlds foremost cafes, Glitch in Tokyo.

 

[aaoueee]

I take my latte art inspiration from one of the worlds foremost cafes, Glitch in Tokyo.
View attachment 319153

Gosh that looks delicious.

 

[OkayMode]

I assume most are already wise to this, but I have been experimenting with slow feeding my grinder and my word, the results are night and day.

This is especially noticeable on decaf beans, which tend to be far more prone to inconsistent grinding anyway as a result of the processing. By slow feeding, I was able to produce a decaf pourover that was genuinely better than the caffeinated beans I currently have in from the same roaster.

That’s never happened before

 

[daveb]

I feel the same way about plating food. Like why take the time to make the plates look good, it adds nothing to the meals besides that initial wow factor and at the end of the day, it all looks like a turd in a gas station bathroom.

You ever get pissed at the aides and serve baked beans / chili / etc for lunch and dinner?

BTW - I plate as best I can, because I can. Residents probably never notice.

 

[dchang21]

my setup but it has changed slightly.

if i have time on the weekends, i roast. but it's even harder to find green beans..

 

[aaoueee]

my setup but it has changed slightly.

View attachment 319326

if i have time on the weekends, i roast. but it's even harder to find green beans..


View attachment 319327

Incredible setup! Love the No-Face perched on the Mini.

 

[Vertigo]

You ever get pissed at the aides and serve baked beans / chili / etc for lunch and dinner?

BTW - I plate as best I can, because I can. Residents probably never notice.

TBH I think I actually tryhard even more than I did when I was running a restaurant.

I don't care if the residents notice or not, they're eating top shelf in their final days either way.

 

[Bodine]

I will never get in as deep as most of you, but this thread did inspire me to buy an espresso machine and upgrade the burr on my grinder.

 

[SeattleB]

Here in town we have two places with a Kees Van der Westen machine, and neither has staff that know how to use it which makes the result taste like battery acid.
One of the places has a KvdW Lever, and they should be best positioned, since all that takes is to dial in the grinder, but even that is too much.

The Kees machines are really rare here. La Marzocco, Synesso, Slayer and Decent are all HQ'd in Seattle, so a Kees machine is seen about as often as a Martian. I spotted one in a cafe once and commented on it to the barista, who didn't know what it was. Must have been a part-timer. I'd love to take one for a test spin. They look so cool.

 

[mengwong]

"Honey, why is there a knife in the freezer?"

You know how you plunge a soft-boiled egg into an ice bath? So, it turns out people have been chilling their espressi.



Non-KKF coffee nerds need to buy a steel ball:
https://thebasicbarista.com/products/coffee-alive-extract-chilling-ball

But if you've earned your ARM stripes, try this one weird trick:

 

[Bodine]

Now the learning curve begins, not fancy, but I think it will work for me