European profile for dummies

[orecchiette]

I have been using a typical western chef’s knife all my life, and lately I’ve decided it’s finally time to get something fancy. But even looking at Japanese knives makes me nervous - too thin, too frail, too flat. I mostly use rocking for cutting and can be pretty heavy-handed; I can almost hear the steel chipping under my grip.

I wanted to play it safe, so I looked through mainstream German brands, but most of them feel clunky and heavy. My parents own a set of Wüsthofs and sure, they get the job done, but there is absolutely no joy in it for me. I find heavy blades to be very straining on my wrists, and the bolster is obnoxious.

So I feel kind of on a fence here. Herder’s 1922 series looks really tempting, but the prices seem to be controversial. Misono Sweden Steel has been recommended, Akifusa has been mentioned. Do I want a more European gyuto? Do I want a vintage Sabatier? How do I even get a vintage Sabatier? Is this kind of nogent from official distributor any good, or is the steel quality completely unpredictable?

Guys, I think I don’t know what I’m doing.

LOCATION
Denmark

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in?
Chef's knife, an all-rounder.

Are you right or left-handed?
Left-handed. Double bevel preferred.

Are you interested in a Western handle or Japanese handle?
No preferences.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
180-210 mm.

Do you require a stainless knife?
Not necessarily, but since I am innocent, nothing too reactive.

Absolute maximum budget
€200.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
A lot of work with vegetables - slicing, chopping, mincing + occasional meat slicing.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Fiskars. You wouldn’t know them, they go to another school.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Hammer grip.

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Rocking, slicing, chopping. Cannot push-cut to save my life.

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
Edge retention. Lasting at least one month while cooking everyday would be awesome. Great balance and small weight would be appreciated - my wrists protest against working with heavy or forward-tipping blades.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives?
Currently ruining every knife in my kitchen while learning how to use a whetstone.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives?
Yes, it’s all your fault. I will be sending you the invoice.

 

[enrico]

I really love my Forgecraft. My wife loves to use it too. Its cheap and sharpens up pretty easily. Not too thin BTE and plenty of room to experiment with some stones. If it gets any rust just throw some BKF on it and don’t really care how it looks because of the price point. Cuts extremely well for the price I paid too.

 

[deltaplex]

I really love my Forgecraft. My wife loves to use it too. Its cheap and sharpens up pretty easily. Not too thin BTE and plenty of room to experiment with some stones. If it gets any rust just throw some BKF on it and don’t really care how it looks because of the price point. Cuts extremely well for the price I paid too.

Slightly more difficult to find in Denmark than here, though.

 

[enrico]

Slightly more difficult to find in Denmark than here, though.

Ebay?

 

[orecchiette]

Ebay?

Just checked; the shipping fee is gonna be a pain, but altogether still, pretty affordable.
Any particular issues to watch out for with Forgecraft? I’ve never even held one of those.

 

[deltaplex]

This may not be a bad option for what you're describing (this is a US retailer, but I'd be surprised if you can't find the 8" version from an EU based one):

https://bernalcutlery.com/products/pallares-8-kitchen-knife-carbon-boxwood
Relatively light, relatively inexpensive, suitable profile for cutting with a rocking motion, comfortable handle for a hammer grip, etc.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Paging @Benuser

 

[Krouton]

If you’re interested in trying carbon out, the boker cottage craft from Knives and Tools might be a good option as well. 21cm should be about 50€ last time I checked.

 

[M1k3]

Sure, it's iron clad. But once you get a patina going, the reactivity settles down a lot. The steel is pretty durable also. Munetoshi knives from Sanjo

 

[Giovanny Torres]

I find Kyohei Shindo to be super tough, mine fell tip first in the sink a couple of times and no damage.
Is very thin behind the edge but it doesn't feel fragile and I've cut parmesan rind, squash and I even borrowed it to coworkers and haven't seen even a micro chip.
Maybe I got lucky with mine but I can recommend it without hesitation, just swap the stock handle as is very slippery and just terrible overall.

 

[orecchiette]

I find Kyohei Shindo to be super tough, mine fell tip first in the sink a couple of times and no damage.
Is very thin behind the edge but it doesn't feel fragile and I've cut parmesan rind, squash and I even borrowed it to coworkers and haven't seen even a micro chip.
Maybe I got lucky with mine but I can recommend it without hesitation, just swap the stock handle as is very slippery and just terrible overall.

I am wholly uncertain if I’m capable of rehandling a knife. Which probably means I’m not. Right?

 

[jaydee]

Tetogi.dk have a pretty good range of knives that could be suitable.
Additionaly they could give their own advice and also sharpen the knives if needed.
Some of the cheaper carbon knives could benefit from an initial sharpening/thinning. (Fujiwara FKH)

 

[orecchiette]

https://bernalcutlery.com/products/pallares-8-kitchen-knife-carbon-boxwoodRelatively light, relatively inexpensive, suitable profile for cutting with a rocking motion, comfortable handle for a hammer grip, etc.

Very interesting shape, seems to be pretty rocky indeed. I’ve never used a knife this rounded, might be interesting.

If you’re interested in trying carbon out, the boker cottage craft from Knives and Tools might be a good option as well.

Quite a bit of a belly on this bad boy. I am used to working with a much “flatter” profiles. Are there any downsides to bigger roundness?

 

[blokey]

Very interesting shape, seems to be pretty rocky indeed. I’ve never used a knife this rounded, might be interesting?

Quite a bit of a belly on this bad boy. I am used to working with a much “flatter” profiles. Are there any downsides to bigger roundness?

Robert Herder or K sabatier would probably suit your need

 

[orecchiette]

Robert Herder or K sabatier would probably suit your need

I figured But modern K Sabatier does not seem to be held in high esteem around here. With Herder the only issue is the outrageous price.

 

[blokey]

I figured But modern K Sabatier does not seem to be held in high esteem around here. With Herder the only issue is the outrageous price.

Modern K sab probably need a bit tweak, they do have a 14c28n version but I forgot the name.

 

[blokey]

BTW I really like the JCK Kagayaki Basic series of knives, VG1 stainless with good grind, tougher than something like Takamura, it is almost 20/80 grind tho, the choil shot doesn’t look as good as some stuff here but cuts equally as good if not better. I did a quick review here.

 

[blokey]

One of the knives I always wanted to test, the JCK original Kagayaki basic, probably too basic for most people so there’s not a lot of reviews out there. This is the 270mm version, cost around $150, while not cheap, it is certainly a bargain with this length since many budget options simply don’t do it. I choose the ES option for free. The steel is VG1, basically Takefu version of Abe-h/19c27, very close to AUS10.
This knife is a pleasant surprise, on first look it is like your average mass produce Japanese gyuto with highly asymmetrical bevels, but it is really well down, the edge is properly thing and flex under a nail tho not too much. While it looks flat, the right bevel is actually convex, adding to the geometry. It have no distal taper but the tip comes out very thin. All in all, great knife. I run out of ingredients to test today so I will update later.
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[SwampDonkey]

I am wholly uncertain if I’m capable of rehandling a knife. Which probably means I’m not. Right?

+1 for Kyohei Shindo. My first Japanese knife that started this addiction and they still out-cut knives 3x the price. A good dip in to carbon steel because his blue #2 is quite tough and not very reactive with a tough kurouchi, but they're wicked thin behind the edge. I've never had so much as a microchip on mine. Zahocho carries them with an upgraded handle, as does SharpKnifeShop.

Rehandling is actually quite easy! James from Knives&Stones has great videos on youtube/his website and I'd be happy to walk you through it too if you want to DM me with questions after watching the videos.

Despite my utter adoration for Shindo knives, I think a Munetoshi is going to stand up to abuse better since the grind and edge profile are more robust, plus his heat treatment of white #2 is fantastic. It is super tough with the best edge retention of that steel I've tried. Or do the KKF way and get both

 

[orecchiette]

Or do the KKF way and get both

Begone, temptation incarnate! I am running out of drawers for all my imaginary knives.

Great thanks for the in-depth recommendations, especially regarding the handles. Munetoshi Migaki is simply a different finish, or is something else changing there?

 

[SwampDonkey]

Begone, temptation incarnate! I am running out of drawers for all my imaginary knives.

Great thanks for the in-depth recommendations, especially regarding the handles. Munetoshi Migaki is simply a different finish, or is something else changing there?

Magnet rack is the way to justify growing collections!

The migaki version is most likely just a different finish where he polishes off the kurouchi/forge scale/black-stuff-that-protects-the-blade. The profile of the 240 looks about the same as my kurouchi. It will patina on the whole blade though so make sure you're cool with that. Munetoshi's iron cladding isn't super reactive in my experience though.

Edit: another thing to add is the curvy profile of the Munetoshi is going to go well with your rock chopping. Make sure to get one of the retailers that sells them with octagonal handles because his burnt chestnut D-shaped ones are meant for right-handed users.
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/gyuto_munetoshi-3783-detail

 

[orecchiette]

Edit: another thing to add is the curvy profile of the Munetoshi is going to go well with your rock chopping. Make sure to get one of the retailers that sells them with octagonal handles because his burnt chestnut D-shaped ones are meant for right-handed users.
https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/gyuto_munetoshi-3783-detail

Yeah, I am eyeing this profile with keen interest, seems to be very similar to what I’m used to. Again, thanks for the heads-up on the handle, I might have missed that detail. Such a bother to be a lefty in this cruel world.

 

[Seemore]

Pallares has a more conventionally shaped ‘professional chef’ profile, if you can find one. I’m thinking Pallares are more present in Europe than they are here in the U.S. But it would be heavier, by quite a bit, than a Kyohei Shindo.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I think you should consider this. What I would consider close to a traditional Sabatier profile. Pretty thin, carbon but not too reactive. And steel not too delicate. Finish pretty descent. Can become a great knife with some initial sharpening.

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/nihonko_gyuto240-detail

 

[orecchiette]

After spending many a night wide awake, talking about knives to about anyone who would listen, and at least two nervous breakdowns, I have finally decided to go with rehandled Kyohei Shindo.

I hope that @SwampDonkey is proud of bringing one more innocent soul to the dark side. In the end, I did not go very European, and did not shy away from carbon steel. I will unabashedly admit, that beauty factor played a role here, but the kurouchi is just so pretty.

Thanks everyone for every input - during all my further considerations, I have always circled back to the few options presented here. I am still keeping Sakai Kikumori Nihonko in the back of my mind, since @mengwong compared it to IKEA’s Billy, and I simply love IKEA too much to ignore it.

Now, onto the cutting boards. Any recommendations?

 

[SwampDonkey]

I have this one and it's monster. I used double-sided tape to put some rubber feet on it for airflow/stick it to counter but it's perfect. I like teak because it has more natural oil and is less prone to warping than maple/walnut/cherry, particularly in my humid environment. Plus it's gorgeous. Idk how Walmart carries them so cheap but it's a legit Teakhaus one. I'd say you want at least 1.5" thick on any board to mitigate any warping potential.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/TeakHaus...-w-Hand-Grip-Rectangle-24-x-18-x-1-5/42767485
This is a 230 mm knife that it makes look small:

Someone else on the sub recommended this one and had positive feedback.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0973DM3XM/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_7?smid=A1GKAVO44VPQZ&psc=1
I also have this little one and it's a great travel board or if you only have rook for a small one. I wouldn't buy any knives from this company, but good deal on cutting board.


https://dfackto.com/products/butcher-block-cutting-board-american-cherry

180 bunka for scale: