Expected edge retention/how to tell you're sharpening correctly

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boblob said:
very interesting i do not have any soft carbons just regular stainless steel knives in the range of 56-58 hrc i use the dickoron micro with them , is there anything better than the dickoron micro for those knives in your opinion ?
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I'm no daily user of soft stainless, but from what I've seen, which complies with reports from our two German counterparts, I would say there's no better solution. Using a fine stone for touching up leads to edge instability, a grooved steel leads to fatigued steel. Have a light touch and use it in time. Think some three strokes per side.
 
Kawa said:
@Benuser
Your story about the polished Dickeron, and how you use it prior to wear on your soft carbons. I'm very enthousiastic to try this out.
Right now the wife cuts with dull crap stainless: I don't have the time to sharpen at this moment, so I can't test your way.

But, a little bit related to @boblob 's question:
Do you think that the polished will also work on soft stainless? Or do you find that it works specific on soft carbon only?
I don't have any experience with soft carbon, so I don't know how it compared to (soft) stainless regarding to using a rod..


edit: Or are you past the stage you have any crappy, soft stainless in your home ? 🤔
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The polished one requires a lot of strokes with soft stainless. Better consider the Dickoron micro.
 
boblob said:
this is my kind of problem i am not sure if i am using the dickoron at the optimal time or how i may check when is the optimal time
thank you @Benuser for all of the detailed explanations!!!
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You're most welcome! Don't overthink it. You will soon find out which is the best moment for steeling. Much more important: have a light touch.
 
Benuser said:
You're most welcome! Don't overthink it. You will soon find out which is the best moment for steeling. Much more important: have a light touch.
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@Benuser
how do you clean your dickoron micro and prevent it from rusting ?
i just wipe it with tissue paper after using .... dont know if its optimal
what is your method ?
thank you for the help :)
 
boblob said:
@Benuser
how do you clean your dickoron micro and prevent it from rusting ?
i just wipe it with tissue paper after using .... dont know if its optimal
what is your method ?
thank you for the help :)
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You're most welcome. To have it to rust you first should be able to damage the outer layer, which isn't simple at all. Nothing to worry about. Don't use it with dirty knives and you won't have to really clean it either. Your tissue paper will do.
 
boblob said:
this is how i check

sorry for not being able to understand the method you are referring to but do you do a sawing motion with the knife on your fingernail ?
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So, I watched this video and I think he is sawing on that tomato. My Wusthof classic and my Henckels 4star knives slice it easier in one stroke. It could be his technique or the steel in the knife maybe even he used a 20 degree angle instead of 15 degrees but he should be able to do better.

I am using a Worksharp Ken Onion to sharpen my knives.
 
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boblob said:
@Benuser i came back to the thread since i thought about it lately , which way is better .....
why do you steel prior to usage ?
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Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
 
Benuser said:
Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
Click to expand...

Interessting. Never heard anything about this.
 
Benuser said:
Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
Click to expand...
wow never heard of it before, but when it comes to usage of a honing rod you use it when the knife starts to perform worse after cutting stuff so you let the knife rest and use the honing rod the day after or so before you go to use the knife to cut again ?
 
I would use a honing rod — again, the finest one available and with the lightest touch — long before any loss of performance while cutting is being perceived. My criteria is whether the bevels feel as smooth as I'm used to when running with my nail over it — and, of course, the absence of any burr.
 
Benuser said:
I would use a honing rod — again, the finest one available and with the lightest touch — long before any loss of performance while cutting is being perceived. My criteria is whether the bevels feel as smooth as I'm used to when running with my nail over it — and, of course, the absence of any burr.
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how many times can you do the touch-up on the dickoron before needing to sharpen on a stone ?
i know some tv chefs say to use the honing rod every time before you use it , i find it counterproductive what is your opinion on that ?
 
boblob said:
how many times can you do the touch-up on the dickoron before needing to sharpen on a stone ?
i know some tv chefs say to use the honing rod every time before you use it , i find it counterproductive what is your opinion on that ?
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I hope it's the Dickoron Micro you're talking about. A home user honing before every use? That seems a lot to me. What has happened that you speak about it being counterproductive? With what knife being involved? What kind of board?
Excessive use with too high a pressure will lead to fatigued steel. Time to change the technique. First though have the fatigued steel abraded by a full stone sharpening, starting with a coarse stone. If you remove steel from the edge you have to restore the previous geometry as well, by thinning behind the edge to start with.
As a home user I probably use once or twice a week a Dickoron Polish with a soft carbon Sab. As soon as I feel the need with my nail.
With a soft stainless Burgvogel I don't use that much the Micro every few weeks.
 
Benuser said:
Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
Click to expand...
Id assume thats because the coarse stone is damaging the microstructure of the steel as it is abrading material. Causing some amount of precipitation hardening or something similar?

But thats just a guess, if that is happening.
 
jwthaparc said:
Id assume thats because the coarse stone is damaging the microstructure of the steel as it is abrading material. Causing some amount of precipitation hardening or something similar?

But thats just a guess, if that is happening.
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Yeah, I'd say probably not. If any precipitation happens it would be while the steel is hot from the stones. At room temp, the diffusion of carbon is simply too slow for there to be any effect from sitting overnight. If there is such an effect it is more likely due to oxidation of the burr but honestly, IMO the whole thing seems kinda dubious.
 
Troopah_Knives said:
Yeah, I'd say probably not. If any precipitation happens it would be while the steel is hot from the stones. At room temp, the diffusion of carbon is simply too slow for there to be any effect from sitting overnight. If there is such an effect it is more likely due to oxidation of the burr but honestly, IMO the whole thing seems kinda dubious.
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Yeah.

Or its because theyre starting fresh the next day. And it just seems to work better.
 
Benuser said:
Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't carbon steels oxidize over time? Or is it controlled oxidation, causing the apex to get finer?
 
Benuser said:
Edges somewhat restore over time. That's the reason why whet razor users who could afford used to have a set of razors for every day of the week.
A similar thing can be observed when stone sharpening. Depending on the type of steel, hard to get a stable edge immediately after using a coarse stone with some pressure. Let it rest overnight and deburring is much easier.
Click to expand...
I have never heard of this concept. I wonder if this has something to do with gravity, oxygen or if magnetic storage 🤔
 
M1k3 said:
Wouldn't carbon steels oxidize over time? Or is it controlled oxidation, causing the apex to get finer?
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No, I don't have seen any apex getting finer. Only minor damage getting even smaller. Being out of true getting reduced, in the traditional terminology. That was the sense of having more razors, and waiting before stropping it. Or waiting until use before steeling.
A few very different observations where time was involved. Sharpening Globals, starting by some thinning, you may observe further in the progression unexpected popping burrs. My guess is it has to do with the huge carbides, even clustering, as if some rearrangement is taking place. Similar with Krupp's 4116, to a lesser extent — no clustering —where it is well worth to let it rest after the first stone. You have fully deburred it? Next day, you find a very even small burr, you may gently abrade before going on.
Now about time and carbons. My guess is it has to do as well with temperature changes. The simplest carbon, C60, heavily thinned, put away for a few months after a full sharpening, showing a small, even burr along the entire length.
The same with a few carbons sent during winter time from Japan or the UK, to Holland. Changing from -10°C on a airport to 25°C in a kitchen is enough to reveal burrs that were hidden before — or simply absent.
All this happened only with softer steels, <61Rc.
 
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Benuser said:
I hope it's the Dickoron Micro you're talking about. A home user honing before every use? That seems a lot to me. What has happened that you speak about it being counterproductive? With what knife being involved? What kind of board?
Excessive use with too high a pressure will lead to fatigued steel. Time to change the technique. First though have the fatigued steel abraded by a full stone sharpening, starting with a coarse stone. If you remove steel from the edge you have to restore the previous geometry as well, by thinning behind the edge to start with.
As a home user I probably use once or twice a week a Dickoron Polish with a soft carbon Sab. As soon as I feel the need with my nail.
With a soft stainless Burgvogel I don't use that much the Micro every few weeks.
Click to expand...
dear @Benuser i do use the dickoron micro when i feel the knife starts to perform worse maybe every 3 weeks, i Do not hone before every use!!! , what i said is there are some tv chefs that say you need to hone the knife every time before you use it. and you mentioned you hone before using the knife so i wanted to know if you are doing what the tv chefs do (hone everytime before you use the knife)
 
Benuser said:
No, I don't have seen any apex getting finer. Only minor damage getting even smaller. Being out of true getting reduced, in the traditional terminology. That was the sense of having more razors, and waiting before stropping it. Or waiting until use before steeling.
A few very different observations where time was involved. Sharpening Globals, starting by some thinning, you may observe further in the progression unexpected popping burrs. My guess is it has to do with the huge carbides, even clustering, as if some rearrangement is taking place. Similar with Krupp's 4116, to a lesser extent — no clustering —where it is well worth to let it rest after the first stone. You have fully deburred it? Next day, you find a very even small burr, you may gently abrade before going on.
Now about time and carbons. My guess is it has to do as well with temperature changes. The simplest carbon, C60, heavily thinned, put away for a few months after a full sharpening, showing a small, even burr along the entire length.
The same with a few carbons sent during winter time from Japan or the UK, to Holland. Changing from -10°C on a airport to 25°C in a kitchen is enough to reveal burrs that were hidden before — or simply absent.
All this happened only with softer steels, <61Rc.
Click to expand...

@Benuser by the way when you use your dickoron what is the grip that you hold your knife with ?
do you use the sharpening grip (with the index finger on the spine and thumb at the heel) or do you use a pinch grip like when cutting stuff with a knife ?
i use pinch grip but my thumb gets in the way when doing one of the sides
thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!
 
boblob said:
@Benuser by the way when you use your dickoron what is the grip that you hold your knife with ?
do you use the sharpening grip (with the index finger on the spine and thumb at the heel) or do you use a pinch grip like when cutting stuff with a knife ?
i use pinch grip but my thumb gets in the way when doing one of the sides
thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!
Click to expand...
You're most welcome. When using a rod I only touch the knife's handle — but it's hardly a grip.
 
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boblob said:
very interesting so basically you are using a hammer grip ?
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...hUKEwixg_KQh539AhV5pycCHdQlDuwQMygCegUIARD2AQhow do you control the angle it seems harder than when putting the index finger on the spine , best of wishes

bob
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No problem in controlling the angle here. It's all about applying no pressure, in fact retrieving weight. I find the angle by feeling where the steel — or a stone, leather or cardboard — starts catching the edge. Too high as a sharpening angle, fine for deburring or steeling.
 
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