Fastest cutting medium grit stone

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This is the most comprehensive comparison of 1k(ish) stones I've ever found, and allthough the results aren't necessarily directly applicable when it comes to sharpening kitchen knives, it provides lots of valuable info.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part I. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part II. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing part III, what’s the stone actually doing? « Tools from Japan blog.
 
I don’t know if the cutting speed of a 1000 grit stone is that important. I think that you need a lower grit stone if the edge has some heavy damage and you want to fix this. For regular sharpening or removing the scratch marks of a lower grit stone you usually don’t need much cutting speed.
 
daveb said:
But. I once saw a vid of Schwart sharpening on a tree stump that was held together by myriad hose clamps. My choice is to run, not walk away from anything he's hawking.
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I don't know anything about him. He seems very into the 16 bajillion grit strop sprays. I wonder if anyone has any experience with them. My thoughts turn cynical when I see him demonstrating their effectiveness by doing a few strokes on a spyderco and then slicing copy paper.
 
ian said:
I don't know anything about him. He seems very into the 16 bajillion grit strop sprays. I wonder if anyone has any experience with them. My thoughts turn cynical when I see him demonstrating their effectiveness by doing a few strokes on a spyderco and then slicing copy paper.
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I wouldn't give Ken Schwartz a penny. He censors his own videos so only his comments remain and it is my experience that he cannot handle criticism at all. There's just too many other good options out there.
 
I don't know what Ken did to earn the ire of this forum but I'd love to know. Those of you casting shade on him seem like good guys, but I've been buying stones from Ken, not many, maybe 7 or 8 over 8 years, and I've not had any issues at all. He shipped what he said he would when he said he would and he has given me plenty of his time answering questions etc.

While stones are somewhat subjective, I have 60+ stones from most of the majors and can say with a clean conscience that some of the Nubatama's are my most frequently used stones in their specific grit ranges. I can also say I have a couple I don't like, but I can say that of every stone manufacturer so to me thats not unusual or unexpected.

And HumbleHomeCook, I'm sure you did see censorship if you say you did, but when I looked at Kens Youtube channel just now ( kenneths123 ), I didn't see any obvious censorship. With the exception of one vid that had the comments section turned off, the random selection I clicked ranging from this year to 10 years ago seemed pretty normal. People asking questions, him replying. Granted I didn't look at every vid, but I didn't see any that where just his comments.

Anyways. I'm a relative new comer to this forum. I wasn't around when whatever went down to create a rift happened but I would like to know if anyone would care to share.
 
memorael said:
Use diamonds, but take care.
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memorael said:
Use diamonds, but take care.
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Jesus.... the posts are all over the place. The fastest stone I know of when it comes to moving material is the dmt xxc, its rough as hell really fast and it gets the job done. For a more specific answer let us know, besides fast what else does the stone need to do? By pure login dmt xxc is the hardest abrasive and biggest size abrasive there is so just go at it. Unless you are more specific.
 
branwell said:
I don't know what Ken did to earn the ire of this forum but I'd love to know. Those of you casting shade on him seem like good guys, but I've been buying stones from Ken, not many, maybe 7 or 8 over 8 years, and I've not had any issues at all. He shipped what he said he would when he said he would and he has given me plenty of his time answering questions etc.

While stones are somewhat subjective, I have 60+ stones from most of the majors and can say with a clean conscience that some of the Nubatama's are my most frequently used stones in their specific grit ranges. I can also say I have a couple I don't like, but I can say that of every stone manufacturer so to me thats not unusual or unexpected.

And HumbleHomeCook, I'm sure you did see censorship if you say you did, but when I looked at Kens Youtube channel just now ( kenneths123 ), I didn't see any obvious censorship. With the exception of one vid that had the comments section turned off, the random selection I clicked ranging from this year to 10 years ago seemed pretty normal. People asking questions, him replying. Granted I didn't look at every vid, but I didn't see any that where just his comments.

Anyways. I'm a relative new comer to this forum. I wasn't around when whatever went down to create a rift happened but I would like to know if anyone would care to share.
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Really old forums member, lurker etc... Ken earned the IRE of the forums because he is so square that if there isn't a mathematical formula explaining how things work it probably isn't right. Knife sharpening can be really precise if we all got together and analyzed every stone and every knife to the point of having mathematical precision, but that's close to impossible of happening. Sharpening knives is a personal thing, knowing your knife and how you like it to perform is part of understanding sharpening and what steel you like, its not subjective. Ken tried to make it subjective and well, got the title of idot.
 
memorael said:
Really old forums member, lurker etc... Ken earned the IRE of the forums because he is so square that if there isn't a mathematical formula explaining how things work it probably isn't right. Knife sharpening can be really precise if we all got together and analyzed every stone and every knife to the point of having mathematical precision, but that's close to impossible of happening. Sharpening knives is a personal thing, knowing your knife and how you like it to perform is part of understanding sharpening and what steel you like, its not subjective. Ken tried to make it subjective and well, got the title of idot.
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You mean objective?

Again, idk, but it seems like the forum is usually pretty interested in precision nowadays. Sharpening may be a personal journey or whatever, but when people offer actual explanations for what is happening I find forum members pretty appreciative. I wonder if that’s changed over the years, or if Ken’s attitude was abrasive, or what. The only problem I ever have with theory here is when people make guesses based on a physical understanding of what’s going on that I’m not sure are supported by evidence (e.g. the idea that sharpening with the handle at a certain angle to the stone can align the teeth of the edge in a useful way), or when people focus on something that probably does happen, but is so insignificant that no-one will ever notice it.
 
memorael said:
Jesus.... the posts are all over the place. The fastest stone I know of when it comes to moving material is the dmt xxc, its rough as hell really fast and it gets the job done. For a more specific answer let us know, besides fast what else does the stone need to do? By pure login dmt xxc is the hardest abrasive and biggest size abrasive there is so just go at it. Unless you are more specific.
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I haven't tried DMT XXC, but I do have and use Atoma diamond 1k. In fact I used it even for repairs, cause it's super fast (comparable to JNS 300) but doesn't leave deep scratches. The only problem with Atoma is that it looses diamonds over time. I wear mine in 2 years to the state when it's no longer usable for repairs, but still ok for sharpening.

Despite having very good sythetic stones and few naturals, I rarely use any of them theese days. Once you try diamond stones, it's hard to look back. I've found locally made diamond stones that are cheaper than Japanese/EU synthetic stones, so for me it's not only speed, but also money economy.
 
I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry OP.

My interactions with Ken were outside of this forum. I was a fan at first but over time, his attitude just turned me off. He's his biggest fan. I'm not arguing the validity of his products by any means and if you like dealing with him that is great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. I just go turned off and never looked back.

Now, I know Cliff was quite the polarizing figure himself but it's an easy to find example. Cliff has the original video linked in his comments.

 
I had a XXC at the start of my "journey". Used a full DMT line-up on hunting knives before I got into sharp kitchen knives. I only used the XXC on problem children and it would leave gouges in the blade face that were neat impossible to remove. It did make for a very good flattener though. A year into kitchen knives I gave it to someone that needed a cheap flattener (and I needed an excuse to buy JKI's plate).
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry OP.

My interactions with Ken were outside of this forum. I was a fan at first but over time, his attitude just turned me off. He's his biggest fan. I'm not arguing the validity of his products by any means and if you like dealing with him that is great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. I just go turned off and never looked back.

Now, I know Cliff was quite the polarizing figure himself but it's an easy to find example. Cliff has the original video linked in his comments.

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Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.

I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.
 
Apologies for derailing as well. Back on topic, like others here I've settled on the deservedly popular 500 -> 2000 progression. 1K feels too slow for bevel work but too fast for touch ups. If you twisted my arm I would say the Shapton Pro 1K is the fastest non-diamond waterstone for typical kitchen knife steels in the limited grit range specified by the OP. But I'd like to know more about the context: what stones are you using before and after in your progression?
 
ian said:
You mean objective?

Again, idk, but it seems like the forum is usually pretty interested in precision nowadays. Sharpening may be a personal journey or whatever, but when people offer actual explanations for what is happening I find forum members pretty appreciative. I wonder if that’s changed over the years, or if Ken’s attitude was abrasive, or what. The only problem I ever have with theory here is when people make guesses based on a physical understanding of what’s going on that I’m not sure are supported by evidence (e.g. the idea that sharpening with the handle at a certain angle to the stone can align the teeth of the edge in a useful way), or when people focus on something that probably does happen, but is so insignificant that no-one will ever notice it.
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It's really hard to really define why hand sharpening is better than using a JIG. I have tried them both and can confirm that hand sharpening is better, I can do things with my hands that no jig can is all I can tell you. Precision as a concept sounds pretty neat and many like the idea of precision but when it comes to the practice of sharpening some things are just going to be imprecise and theres nothing you me Ken or whoever else is around can do. As I mentioned before Ken got caught up in these ideas of ULTRA PRECISE and BEST CUTTING PERFORMANCE due to precision and basically tired everyone out.

If you want some proof that hand sharpening is and probably will always be better just ask yourself why it still is the most common practice amongst professionals. One other thing, some ideas and principles on how or why things happen can be explained incorrectly by assuming something happens and while it may be an incorrect explanation there is no doubt that something useful does indeed happen.
 
spaceconvoy said:


Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.

I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.
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Best scene ever.

As to Ken, no, I had not seen that vid or its comment section and clearly he deleted a stack of comments. Didn't know of the other things you mention either. Got to say, I'm disappointed. I rather liked his stones :(
 
spaceconvoy said:


Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.

I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.
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Yikes. Not sure how someone who cares at all about science can argue that the blade stayed below 140F. Wow.
 
branwell said:
Best scene ever.

As to Ken, no, I had not seen that vid or its comment section and clearly he deleted a stack of comments. Didn't know of the other things you mention either. Got to say, I'm disappointed. I rather liked his stones :(
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His products aren't actually bad, I had some CBN compound of his that I quite liked back when I was into stropping. They're just overpriced and fall short of his ridiculous claims. "Completely average rebranded Imanishi* stones" doesn't have the same mystique though.

*personal conjecture, should not be construed as legal advice
 
the shapton glass and pro 1k is almost identical in speed. the glass is a high density resinoid stone and the pro is a magnesia stone. yet they feel almost indentical. and both are splash and go. i like both and own both. really can't go wrong with any of them.
 
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