First Jnat to pair with SP 1k and 5k

[mockit]

Hi there!

I have some interest in taking the plunge on a Jnat. Currently, I have SP 1k and SP 5k synthetic stones. What would be your recommendation for a good first stone to pair these with? I plan to use the stone with high HRC steels like AoS, spicy white, 52100, and 1.2519. I have had success with the Shaptons on my MAC knives and a couple of Yu Kurosaki petty knives but am still very much a beginner. Primary use would be sharpening and edge work. My budget would probably top out at 400$. Kind of eying an Aizu but not sure if that would be the right choice.

Thanks ahead of time

~mockit

 

[Pie]

I think your search should be directed by your goals.

Are you looking to refine, or taste the jnat edge in the low finisher range (similar to the rika, and certainly many aizu produce awesome kitchen edges)? There are a huge number of options, ranging from mirror polishers to toothy produce edge machines. Jnat is very much a world of “what do you want to try to do?”, and whether you can find that stone or not.

A focus on desired results, and discussion with prospective sellers may hopefully yield a stone you will enjoy.

Happy hunting!

 

[mockit]

I have not played around with a knife sharpened at >5k. The forum tends to steer people away from really high finish edges on kitchen knives as it can actually decrease performance? Particularly for a beginner sharpener. I have not tried to thin anything yet but it sounds like the pros thin a little bit each time to maintain geometry. Is a 1k fine enough to do really minor thinning or do people tend to start at 500s for that? Really I am thinking about the overall utility of a stone in maintaining and prolonging a keen edge. Stuck between a few different options there. 1. coarser, 2. something between 1k-5k that produces a usable edge, and 3. a polish/finish stone. Without buying all of three of those... . What do you recommend?

 

[M1k3]

Oouchi from JKI is pretty nice for sharpening and polishing.

 

[user 50275]

My novice advice would be:
For sharpening. Keep the 1k. Buy a harder aoto, finer natsuya, Aizu or ikarashi.
That should produce a nice edge.

Polishing is a complete different thing id say. Also no idea how good a ceramic sone is for polishing. Other people can answer this.
I think for serious thinning you cant start low enough

 

[ethompson]

If sharpening is what you’re interested in get a BBW in my opinion. Faster than any jnat and cheaper. For polishing any soft Kyoto stone is the place to start, lots of options, best to get something tested by someone else

 

[daveb]

Oouchi from JKI is pretty nice for sharpening and polishing.

+1

Great first Jnat, as is the harder to find Takashima. Fairly easy to use, feels good, forgiving, good results. I like to use mine with a G4K or G6K first as a jumping off point.

 

[Pie]

I have not played around with a knife sharpened at >5k. The forum tends to steer people away from really high finish edges on kitchen knives as it can actually decrease performance? Particularly for a beginner sharpener. I have not tried to thin anything yet but it sounds like the pros thin a little bit each time to maintain geometry. Is a 1k fine enough to do really minor thinning or do people tend to start at 500s for that? Really I am thinking about the overall utility of a stone in maintaining and prolonging a keen edge. Stuck between a few different options there. 1. coarser, 2. something between 1k-5k that produces a usable edge, and 3. a polish/finish stone. Without buying all of three of those... . What do you recommend?

Number 2 would be my choice. Coarse jnats tend to offer less than coarse synthetics, and if you don’t plan on polishing yet, a good toothy edge off a middle grit stone would be most useful.

Many people here like their aizu edges, aoto perhaps but I would look for something light in color - jnats don’t really behave like synthetics, so being able to see swarf and metal being removed really helps discover what’s going on when you use the stone.

 

[Cliff]

I love a hard, blue Aoto on AS, for edges. Aizu or BBW would be great, too, and the latter is much less expensive.

 

[ReiHamono]

Akapin

 

[tostadas]

As mentioned already, aoto and aizu fall in the range of 1-4k and produce similar edges. The aizus I've used feel slightly more consistent than aoto with regard to grit distribution. And both can be found relatively easily for not a lot of cash. I also find BBW to be a better non-jnat value option for edges. It's currently my go-to though I like to mix it up from time to time and use my jnats.

 

[Pie]

Aoto and BBW train for kitchen edges as well.

They just hang out on the counter for easy access

 

[user 50275]

Well that Aoto looks very similar.

Aoto train chuchu.

 

[mockit]

Aoto and BBW train for kitchen edges as well.

They just hang out on the counter for easy access

Do you start on the Aoto and finish / touch up on the BBW? I have perused the BBW thread a little bit, but am not super familiar. I understand that there is a decent amount of variation between natural stones but would you say that in terms of creating a refined edge / grit, that BBW > Aoto > Aizu? I get that polishing is a whole different ball game as well. Maybe one day I will take that plunge. Some of the stuff you guys post is absolutely unreal.

 

[Cliff]

No, they are very similar. The garnets in the BBW dig a little deeper; it's a little faster. But the feel is pretty close overall. Aizu feels similar, too.

BBW is the easiest to find and least expensive. It's a great place to start.

ETA - I think there is a wider range of Aoto's available, from softer and rougher, often brownish, to harder and finer, in greens and blues. I haven't seen the same kind of range in BBW, though there are different mines with different qualities. Bottom line, they are all fun to explore, but there is so much overlap that I'd pick one of this type and see if you like it.

 

[mockit]

Thanks guys. This forum is the bomb. Gotta $ up soon. Been really impressed by the warm welcome and informative crew. I realllly want a Blue Aoto or light blue Aizu. A lot of it is the JNS mystique and the aesthetics of those stones. Really cool stuff. I think for now I am going to try a BBW though. It sounds like I cannot go wrong. Does this seem like a decent source, size, price?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/757197...ecs_1&frs=1&crt=1&sts=1&variation0=1471190326
Open to other recs. I looked through the BBW thread a bit too but it is chaos hahaha.

Appreciated,

~Mockit

 

[Cliff]

These have a good reputation:

https://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en/shop/4/belgian-blue-whetstones-bbwhttps://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Belgian-Blue-Whetstones-P1534C285.aspx

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I also love my BBW but would toss in a consideration for a quality Hard Arkansas as another natural stone finisher alternative.

 

[jedy617]

Thanks guys. This forum is the bomb. Gotta $ up soon. Been really impressed by the warm welcome and informative crew. I realllly want a Blue Aoto or light blue Aizu. A lot of it is the JNS mystique and the aesthetics of those stones. Really cool stuff. I think for now I am going to try a BBW though. It sounds like I cannot go wrong. Does this seem like a decent source, size, price?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/757197...ecs_1&frs=1&crt=1&sts=1&variation0=1471190326
Open to other recs. I looked through the BBW thread a bit too but it is chaos hahaha.

Appreciated,

~Mockit

That seller was recommended to me, and I got one coming to my house any day now.

My first jnat was a Hideriyama from JKI, and they still carry some. Jon recommended it to me. Finished about in the 6-8k range. At first, I really didn't feel like I could get a great edge on it. Then someone gave me the advice that these stones are much harder than synthetics and to use a much lighter touch. After doing that, my edges are killer off that stone.

 

[tostadas]

Also the ikarashi from jns is similar to aizu. You get an absolute unit of a piece for the price. I sawed mine in half by hand (definitely do not recommend doing this) and the piece I'm left with is still massive.

 

[Heckel7302]

There an Ikarashi up for grabs here. Pretty good price. Aizu too for a bit more cash

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/whetstones-two-mid-grit-and-a-coarse-grit.61873/
Aizu/Ikarashi/Numata are all good mid grit natural stones for a toothy 3-5k edge. I love my Aoto for softer vintage carbons, but never stop there with fancier high hardness steel.

BBW are really great do it all natural stones. With a bunch of slurry they are fast and leave a very toothy edge. No slutty and plenty of water the edge gets much more refined. Any Ardennes branded one should be about the same I think. Here’s an 8” one for a bit less cash than the one you posted.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1750999960...kVKtBNdQ_m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[mockit]

Thanks @Heckel! Was totally set on just getting a BBW and ordered one from the sharpeningsupplies. Just PMd the gentleman trying to sell that Aizu though and might have to double down lol.

 

[Pie]

This is the pace I like to see the natural stone obsession progress!

Honestly once you get steel on a natural stone everything will make a lot more sense. And then you buy sooooo many more rocks.

 

[user 50275]

Bernal has a harder tanaka toishi aoto for 190$.

Harder Aoto ~1400g for 190$

 

[Heckel7302]

Thanks @Heckel! Was totally set on just getting a BBW and ordered one from the sharpeningsupplies. Just PMd the gentleman trying to sell that Aizu though and might have to double down lol.

That’s the knife/stone obsessive way. Establish a budget, then double it.

 

[mockit]

Received the BBW from sharpeningsupplies.com. I am still a beginner sharpener hence the sharpie. Worked really nicely after the 1k Shapton Pro. Seems every bit as fine as a 5k but probably faster? When people say fast vs. slow do they mean how fast it cuts or the feel of the stone? Should have tried to get a combo with a coticule but I don't see myself getting into straight razors. I didn't even get along with a safety razor! Aizu on the way but had to source it from Carbon Co. in Denver. CS was great so no complaints. Would have been nice to save a bit of money on the forum. Available stones + shipping was well over 500 on KKF. Anyways.. having fun / learning. Been watching vids of JNI and Stringer sharpening. Both I find really helpful for different reasons.

Haven't touched the Isasmedjan yet as I want to make sure my technique is really clean before sharpening the $ stuff. That little Yu Kurosaki petty is an absolute razor finished on the BBW though!

 

[user 16756]

Received the BBW from sharpeningsupplies.com. I am still a beginner sharpener hence the sharpie. Worked really nicely after the 1k Shapton Pro. Seems every bit as fine as a 5k but probably faster? When people say fast vs. slow do they mean how fast it cuts or the feel of the stone? Should have tried to get a combo with a coticule but I don't see myself getting into straight razors. I didn't even get along with a safety razor! Aizu on the way but had to source it from Carbon Co. in Denver. CS was great so no complaints. Would have been nice to save a bit of money on the forum though. Available stones + shipping was well over 500 on KKF. Anyways.. having fun / learning. Been watching vids of JNI and Stringer sharpening. Both I find really helpful for different reasons.

Carbon's Aizu are from Morihei and are likely very good stones. Yes a little pricier but I have one from him and it is the best Aizu I've personally used.

I don't think you made a mistake on that one tbh.

 

[deltaplex]

Received the BBW from sharpeningsupplies.com. I am still a beginner sharpener hence the sharpie. Worked really nicely after the 1k Shapton Pro. Seems every bit as fine as a 5k but probably faster? When people say fast vs. slow do they mean how fast it cuts or the feel of the stone? Should have tried to get a combo with a coticule but I don't see myself getting into straight razors. I didn't even get along with a safety razor! Aizu on the way but had to source it from Carbon Co. in Denver. CS was great so no complaints. Would have been nice to save a bit of money on the forum. Available stones + shipping was well over 500 on KKF. Anyways.. having fun / learning. Been watching vids of JNI and Stringer sharpening. Both I find really helpful for different reasons.

Haven't touched the Isasmedjan yet as I want to make sure my technique is really clean before sharpening the $ stuff. That little Yu Kurosaki petty is an absolute razor finished on the BBW though!

The good news is as you learn you see where you used to be. Don't be afraid of putting that Isas on the stones, it's all the same motions and muscle memory, and at the end of the day you're rubbing steel on stone the same as you do with another other knife (but it does take a little bit to mentally get to that point).

 

[stringer]

When people say fast vs. slow do they mean how fast it cuts or the feel of the stone?

By faster we usually means that the stone cuts metal / removes previous scratches faster than something comparable. But the feel of the stone is something entirely different. There is an endless variety to what stones feel like when sharpening but what they feel like doesn't necessarily correlate to how they behave. A very hard and slick feeling stone could cut fast for it's relative fineness. But to make it a little more complicated. How fast the stone is kind of also depends on the knife. Different steels and steel treatments and claddings etc will affect how a stone feels and how it cuts. A muddy stone that feels like sharpening on sandy toothpaste might cut soft stainless very slowly but rip through high hardness carbons. Wrought cladding will make a stone behave way different than stainless cladding.

The beauty of a stone like the BBW is that with a little slurry you get a feeling like a softer stone, but the durability of a more dish resistant, harder stone. And it cuts very fast for it's relatively high fineness. So as long as the knife geometry is in pretty good shape it can be used to maintain a primary cutting bevel on a wide variety of steels for a long time. The coticule is actually capable of doing the same thing. And they are both faster and finer than the BBW. I prefer coticule edges to bbw, to be honest. But the learning curve is steeper. Because of their speed the coticules are much less forgiving if you don't have really good control. And because of their fineness it is pretty easy to create a slick edge if you overdo it. They are also usually quite a bit more expensive, especially in full bench size.

 

[mockit]

I get very little slurry off the BBW. It does feel harder and faster than my SP5K. Very different feelings. Not sure which is more forgiving just yet. Should I be creating a slurry with a diamond plate or not necessary? Appreciate the info guys. I’ve been getting good results but can tell I still have a fair bit of wobble. I also tend to high side just above the primary edge from time to time which scratches. Those are the basics I’m still working on hahaha. Stringer - have watched the YouTube vid of you finishing the ShiHan about a dozen times to understand workflow with stone progressions.