Functional gyuto recs?

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nightslayer

Active Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
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LOCATION
Singapore currently, but in the near future the UK.

KNIFE TYPE
I am interested in a Gyuto, right handed Wa handled (I admit I have only ever handled yos, but I am open to learning and figure I can adapt to different knife handles rather than making the knife adapt to my poor skills) with a blade length of 240mm (I currently use a 10" Henckels but find that a tad too long; but find 8" chef knives a tad too short). I would like either a carbon steel or semi-stainless - stainless doesn't sharpen as easily nor take an edge as easily, and I find the necessity of maintenance a worthy trade-off for those characteristics.

KNIFE USE
The knife will be used only for home use (and generally can be babied if need be).

I cook anything I feel like cooking, and also eat (mostly) anything, so it is safe to say the knife will see all sorts of varied uses (though I will keep the Henckels around, and also possess a chinese vegetable knife and ideally soon a bunch of utility knives, all of which I will use as beaters for rougher work involving bones and such)

Currently my main knife is a 10" Henckels Four Star, though I am also currently playing around with a carbon steel vegetable cleaver. The Henckels is slightly too big for me.

I favour the pinch grip, and mainly push-cut and slice. I admit to much rocking with the Henckels, but I am currently trying to unlearn that - the Chinese vegetable knife is additionally helpful for that purpose.

IMPROVEMENTS
Aesthetics are not a great concern; I want a functional knife. That being said, a clad knife would be ideal because that probably means less maintenance might be required, though I am not averse to patinas on my knife.

I would definitely like a knife lighter and more nimble than the one I currently use.

Ease of sharpening would be ideal, though I have patiently ground away at my Henckels with a 1000 grit CERAX I forsee I might not have quite so much time in the future. Hence, edge retention is also a large priority.

A thin knife which does not wedge easily would be good, but I would perhaps prefer durability to overly thin, delicate knives.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
I have used a wood board, gotten rid of that due to moving, and am looking to obtain another - am currently using synthetic boards as a stopgap.

I am learning to sharpen my own knives - own a 1000 CERAX and 6000 Arashiyama, but am not the best on them yet. Do not own a strop or a proper hone, and am hoping I will not need to buy either, but am not averse to acquiring a strop if need be.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
My budget is around 200USD shipping included, can go to slightly more if need be, but as a student that stretch has limits. I am not averse to waiting on BST or auction sites etc. if that will stretch range of available knives for the budget. I would like a knife I can buy and ideally stop chasing rabbits after - so not something entry level, but it doesn't have to be a work of art either.. though there is something about knowing one possesses a knife hand-forged in Japan which seems.. intrinsically pleasing in and of itself.

The priority is functionality for cooking - ideally an all-rounder knife that sharpens easily, takes a good edge and keeps it, while not being to prone to damage. I understand I might be asking for the sky - but recommendations within that budget would be ideal for me to narrow the scope of my research; there are far too many Japanese names flying around my head at the moment and all of them seem to have their pros and cons.

To anyone who reached this far down - thank you for taking the time to read :)
 
Itinomonn Stain-Less kasumi fits all your preferences perfectly.

It has a semi stainless core with ss cladding. In your price range it's THE functional gyuto. Just 228$ with shipping included AND as it happens they just became back in stock.
 
Thank you for the recommendation! It does seem to be everything I want - are there any other possible competitors? I see the Kochi gyuto from JKI (also 210mm) but that seems to be a bit more expensive.. Also, that $228 price seems to be for the 210mm though? I am still open to that option, but I am wondering if I may find myself missing the extra 30mm every so often. Also, what sort of core steel does it use? I presume a powdered kind of some sort?
 
Another suggestion would be the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji in either regular or "lite" configuration from Knives and Stones. The regular comes with better fit and finish, the lite is less expensive. You can buy the lite and a piece of sand paper, and ease the spine and choil with a few minutes of work.
 
Thank you all for the recommendations so far! Am still probably most likely interested in the Itinomon depending on input on how much difference 30mm makes (a quick search on BST seems to suggest it doesn't come up often); the Wakui seems to be more suited to delicate work (or have I been reading about the wrong iterations?) and the Sukenari and Tanaka are stainless.. should I just give up the carbon idea (it seems they may not be too functionally different) if it means getting better-made knives for the same budget?
 
nightslayer said:
... depending on input on how much difference 30mm makes....
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I think it depends on your cutting style/technique, but for me a 210mm Gyuto is much "longer" than a 8" (German-style) Chef's knife because it has less belly and more usable edge when push cutting.

I honestly thought I wanted 240mm, but realized I didn't really have a good idea of the "feel" of a Gyuto and do have limited counter & cutting board space, *AND* I was seduced by the price of Jon @JKI's Gesshin Stainless Gyuto. Seeing it in person and using it, I'm blown away by the fit & finish and overall attention to detail it shows. I understand it's not as a good of a deal with international shipping, but at the US price I think it's the perfect starter Gyuto. (Decide what you don't like about it and ask for specific recommendations *IF* you ever want a 2nd Gyuto.)
 
Sorry about the Itinomonn price. I was on my phone and didn't notice it was 228 € not $.

For home use 210 size is fine. What YAD said about the coming from german style to J-knives is accurate. Most here prefer 240 size though.

The Wakui is very comparable to Itinomonn. Very similar performers with few minor differences. IMO not significant enough to matter. If you like one you'll like both.

+1 for the Tanaka Ginsan. It's a very good choice. A little heavier than the other two, a bit more belly, ginsan is easy enough to get sharp, very sharp and retains it quite well. Worth your attention IMO. Only reason to pass is if you want more flat spot on the edge profile. other than that it's seriously a killer deal.

And there's the K&S Tanaka B2 nashiji too. Same knife as the ginsan, but with B2 carbon core steel. stupid easy to get sharp. Probably gets the sharpest of all the knives I have. Absolute joy on the stones.

There's an ongoing pass around which you can find here to get some feedback about the knife.

From these my first choice would be the Itinomonn, but really they are all great.
 
+1 regarding the 210 Itinomonn. I was lucky enough to pick one up at a good price on the B/S/T. It's my intro to j-knives so I can't speak to any others, but coming from Wusthoff I'm thrilled with it. I find myself looking for spare produce around the kitchen to add to my meal just so I can use it more :knife:

My thoughts on size: being a home cook & preparing almost 100% veg (I've had the knife for two weeks now and it has yet to touch a piece of meat) I actually find myself wanting a 180mm. I realize for some that's nearly a petty, but I just never find myself thinking that I'd ever need more knife than 210, and usually would prefer less. If I could wish two knives into my arsenal right now it would be a 180mm gyuto and a 135mm ko-bunka, I think with those two knives I could be pretty content.
 
I'm thinking of thinning my collection and letting go of 210 Wakui. A kasumi version that's pretty much the same as the mentioned above Itinomonn.
 
laxdad said:
Another suggestion would be the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji in either regular or "lite" configuration from Knives and Stones. The regular comes with better fit and finish, the lite is less expensive. You can buy the lite and a piece of sand paper, and ease the spine and choil with a few minutes of work.
Click to expand...
I think he wanted clad carbon, so maybe the Tanaka blue2 najishi Instead? Aogami 2 clad in SS. Comes with the k&s upgraded handle and spine/choil treatment for just under 200 usd (not sure how much postage would be though).

Edit: Just realised that JaVa said basically the same thing.
 
I own/owned both an Itinomonn and a Wakui. The profile on the Itinomonn is flatter the Wakui more curved. The Wakui's do have some variability in thickness and grind, the one that I have is thinner than most and is very thin behind the edge. My Wakui looks to be sone What fragile but I have found the w#2 core to be pretty durable. I was interested in also getting a Wakui240 in a thin version like my 210 but Tim at Bernal said that the 240's were not the thin ones. So, the 240's at Bernal might be what you're looking for. The other thing that I liked more about the Wakui over the Itinomonn is the handle and space between the handle and heel of the blade. They are both D snapped, I found the Itinomonn to be rather stubby, like the longer Wakui and it's rosewood. As for the spacing the Itinomonn handle is too close yo the blade for me to get my finger in there, the Wakui spacing is larger and just right for me. The Wakui fits me just right and with good balance.
 
dafox said:
I own/owned both an Itinomonn and a Wakui. The profile on the Itinomonn is flatter the Wakui more curved. The Wakui's do have some variability in thickness and grind, the one that I have is thinner than most and is very thin behind the edge. My Wakui looks to be sone What fragile but I have found the w#2 core to be pretty durable. I was interested in also getting a Wakui240 in a thin version like my 210 but Tim at Bernal said that the 240's were not the thin ones. So, the 240's at Bernal might be what you're looking for. The other thing that I liked more about the Wakui over the Itinomonn is the handle and space between the handle and heel of the blade. They are both D snapped, I found the Itinomonn to be rather stubby, like the longer Wakui and it's rosewood. As for the spacing the Itinomonn handle is too close yo the blade for me to get my finger in there, the Wakui spacing is larger and just right for me. The Wakui fits me just right and with good balance.
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Thank you for the comparison - this was really helpful! Being Asian my hands are probably smaller than yours, though so I wonder if a stubby handle with less finger space might actually be ideal :laugh: Also I'm looking at the Shiro2 rather than the W#2 - would that affect the durability much?

Am now tossing up between the Tanaka Blue2/SS (works out to 320 SGD for the 240mm, 285 for the 210mm after shipping from K&S), Wakui Shiro2/SS (works out to 307SGD for the 240mm and 292 for the 210mm after shipping from Bernal) and the Itinomonn (which is 237 SGD with free shipping for the 210mm). Am perhaps still inclined towards the Itinomonn given the price differential and YAD's suggestion about going from a German to a JKnife, and especially given that 240mm is still quite close to the 10" I find to be a tad too long on my current knife.. but reading up on the Wakui is really not making my decision any easier!

I'm currently wondering how the Tanaka Blue2 KU (I presume that stands for Kurouchi?) compares to the Kasumi (which I presume means the same thing as stainless clad..?), given that it is a good 40AUD cheaper? Also, can anyone explain why the people on this forum seem to tend towards 240mm? I see too many posts of people commenting "if this were the 240mm version it'd be perfect" on their 210mm purchases..
 
Gyutos tend to be thinner and lighter, so a longer blade is easier to control. I went from a 20cm Wustie (edge was abiiut 19cm IIRC) to a 240 gyuto and then a 270 in very short order. 240 is probably the sweet spot for most people in home use.

Shiro is Japanese for white and shirogami is Japanese for white paper, which is the paper that billets of shiroko steel come packaged in, so you are probably talking about the same steel (also known as shiroko) . There is another steel, AIS1 W2 or water-hardened 2 which can cause confusion if abbreviations are used. Often used by Western makers in a similar role to shiroko (mainly because it's not easy to get Hitachi steels in the West). I don't think Wakui uses AISI W2 at all.

The blue (paper) steel (aka, aoko, aogami) in the Tanaka is a more highly alloyed steel which IME has superior edge retention and only slightly reduced sharpenability. I don't know how the steel in the Intinomonn compares
 
Thanks for the clarification! Choosing between these seems nigh impossible - the Itinomonn has an unbeatable price and legendary reputation, but I've just gotten an offer for an absolutely beautiful rehandled Wakui kasumi (that's going to stretch my budget, but I figure if I'm only ever buying one knife it may as well be special).. would anyone be able to offer reasons why the Tanakas might still be worth consideration? JaVa seemed pretty profuse in his praise for them but oddly still prefers the Itinomonn at the end of the day.

Really glad for all the opinions so far, it's really helped with narrowing the research!
 
Another +1 for the Itinomonn. Was just prepping some vegetables and thought how spoiled I am by mine. For sure, they are my favorite knives.

Lars
 
Given what you have said i would go with the Itinomonn. Sounds like it will fit your hand better, the core steel is probably more durable and there is much less variability in thickness and grind from knife to knife. Also, I have discovered that I like lighter handles like ho wood versus heavier woods like ebony. Then you can use the money you saved for your next knife, because you will probably be getting another one sooner than you think ;)
 
Jon at JKI has a Geshin Uraku in White carbon that fits in your budget. Also the Suin VC Gyuto is a great knife for the price that I own and vouch for. It also fits in your budget but I am not counting shipping.

I am %100 for 240mm but you have to ask would you rather have a slightly longer 8 in blade or a slightly shorter 10 in blade?
 
The Tanaka B2 KU is iron clad not stainless.

There is no Tanaka kasumi, but you probably meant nashiji.

Kasumi means a certain kind of polished finish that leaves a hazy (misty) line behind the edge.

Nashiji means pear skin type finish on the blade.

I have all the knives being discussed and the reason for me to pick the Itinomonn over the others is it's versatility. It does everything so well. I think it has the best over all package here. It has the pointiest and thinnest tip, best profile and I like the steels characteristics here the most.

The Wakui is very similar, but the small differences are that it's a bit taller, a bit heavier, Slightly thinner grind behind the edge (but Itinomonn is plenty thin behind the edge too) sharpens just as easy, get's a bit sharper (but the difference is very very small), has a bit less edge retention. Both have Kasumi finish BTW.

The Tanaka Nashiji B2 is the easiest to sharpen and gets just as sharp as the Wakui. Tanaka is the heaviest, but also thin behind the edge and the tip performance is comparable to Wakui (Itinomonns tip is better). I think it's a stupid good deal to get such a great knife for so little, but the more curved profile and wide bevel (hollow) grind can split opinion a bit more than the smooth S-grinds on the Wakui and Itinomonn, but that's another no biggie IMO.

So the differences are mostly really subtle and you can't go wrong with any off them.

I like 240 size more because of it's efficiency. You can fit more stuff under the knife when cutting. For me a good profile on a 240 gyuto is usually better than a good grind on a 210. (if that makes sense?) Also it feels better in hand IMO.
But all that is everyones personal preference so think about what would work best for you.
 
- unrelated for the gyuto discussion -

you say you don't want to get more sharpening stuff, but i just wanted to point out how cheap a leather strop can be if you were considering one.
I made one from scrap wood i just hand sanded flat enough, payed about 2 euro for a piece of scrap leather from a local fabric shop i cut to size.
It can in some cases make a significant difference in deburring
 
Java that explanation has answered my uncertainties perfectly - and thank you also for patiently breaking down all the terminology. I would have picked the Itinomonn but (contrary to what most here expect, and probably think) I may be trying to stop at one knife, and am hence currently working out something concerning a particularly beautiful Wakui I saw somewhere.. will update if that goes through, or if I eventually plump for something else instead!

Mikael - I certainly would try to fashion a strop of my own; will look into that soon! I've got an old leather belt I might try to repurpose, but scrap material isn't particularly easy to come by in my neck of the woods, nor strop pastes.. which is why I have yet to acquire a strop by this point.
 
I started out on a belt, hell sharpened on the fly for my brother the other day took off my belt and secured it to a kitchen cabinet and stropped on that, it's a way you can instantly try it out if you want. I do prefer it on a solid base though, and compound whilst not necessary can make work of those impossible burrs easier
 
Balsa wood also makes a pretty handy strop if leather is hard to come by. I mounted some 300 x 100 x 8 mm balsa on some 300 x 90 x 45 mm pine (a 1' piece of 2"x4") with some contact adhesive (but PVC craft glue would probably work). 4 adhesive rubber feet. Sanded flat to 400 grit. Loaded with a very thin smear of 1 micron diamond paste ($10 for 5 ml syringe from a lapidiary/ gemological shop).
 
What would be the most barebones yet still functional for purpose sort of strop, if I were to cobble one together? I've seen people load old belts glued onto a block of wood with toothpaste on the interwebz..
 
nightslayer said:
What would be the most barebones yet still functional for purpose sort of strop, if I were to cobble one together? I've seen people load old belts glued onto a block of wood with toothpaste on the interwebz..
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I've never seen a kitchen knife person mention it, but I've seen a number of wood carving folk suggest cereal box cardboard, unprinted side up, on MDF. (A basic upgrade is glass base. MDF starts very flat, but don't ever get it wet if you want it to stay that way!) They usually charge it with generic green honing compound (Chromium DiOxide?) I guess that's still the budget choice, but Flexcut has a "Gold Polishing" compound that's reported to be more consistent and is more available in woodworking stores for not much more.

Again, I haven't seen kitchen knife folk mention it, but I can't think of why it wouldn't work and it certainly is barebones & cheap! :)
 
If you're still in SG, you can pop by this shop called Razorsharp. They carry Masakage Koichi series, probably have a gyuto available.

Though the last time i went was 2016, picked up a petty.
 
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