And honestly these creative solutions have created 75% of the world's most delicious dishes. Where would we be without lengua tacos, or liver and onions, or chicarone or tripa, or head cheese, or m*****f***ing Passover brisket.
Has the thought of going vegetarian ever crossed your mind?
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DitmasPork
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Scrapple is greatly under-appreciated.
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Salade de museau is one of my favorites. A great summer snack. Fat, vinegar, salt. Voila.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
But where did all the pasta in the med diet?! It has to be there, how else did we get pasta grannies?!
Agreed... though I think some of it is also a bit of a counter culture as a result of how certain interest groups have really started to 'ram their message down people's throat', with the ends justifying ever progressing means...
Although I think in the US people seem far more nutty and obnoxious about meat (or diet in general) than I've seen here in Europe.
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Yeah, I agree. Just in general, people with strong opinions who don't listen are the worst, even if I sometimes agree with them.But where did all the pasta in the med diet?! It has to be there, how else did we get pasta grannies?!
Agreed... though I think some of it is also a bit of a counter culture as a result of how certain interest groups have really started to 'ram their message down people's throat', with the ends justifying ever progressing means...
Although I think in the US people seem far more nutty and obnoxious about meat (or diet in general) than I've seen here in Europe.
I mean, you yourself stated a few things in this very thread as facts, as have several others. It's not stated as opinion but as fact.
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I'm not quite sure if I understand exactly what you mean by this. Might just be tired, its late here.
I was just trying to say to Jovidah in reference to 'ram their message down people's throat' that people can sometimes not listen very well when they're trying to espouse their opinions. I would include myself in that category occasionally, though I try my best to listen as much as I speak.
As for facts in this thread, I think I stated very few hard facts, maybe just the stats on farm subsidies. I stated some strong opinions about the US agricultural system, but there's lots of layers and some would disagree with the root causes or the best ways to fix food prices and affordability.
Not trying to derail the thread and apologies if I've done so.
I don't believe in so-called "toxic masculinity". I don't believe cows are any worse for the planet than mass farming. I know that hundreds of millions of people can't afford to buy nor have the room for large animal carcasses. They live paycheck to paycheck in small dwellings.
I could go on but I realize I've had a momentary lack of reason and engaged in this discussion.
I could go on but I realize I've had a momentary lack of reason and engaged in this discussion.
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It seems I have triggered you for some reason. At least in terms of the topic of food/farming, I don't think you and I are necessarily disagree with one another, but since you didn't make much of an effort to explain your viewpoints, its hard to say.
I will just say that I don't think cows are bad for the planet, nor mass agriculture, since they are in fact necessary, but there are better and worse ways to farm. I am one of those hundreds of millions who would struggle to afford buying a large animal on a regular basis nor do I have space for it in my small apartment. I would be the first to admit that there is no one size fits all solution to food issues (whether meat or vegetables), and I certainly wouldn't be naive enough to think people with completely different lives and livelihoods to that of your average Westerner should find anything relevant in what I have to say.
And now I probably have officially derailed the thread.
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
My sympathies regarding your family.I was on a more or less fully plant-based diet for some 15 years (as an adult, mind you) purely due to animal rights, environmental reasons, and other ethical considerations. So, yeah, I was a vegan through and through.
With Covid and some other things going down the toilet (including my loved one's first bout of cancer, my father dying a long death in isolation during Covid, etc.) I just kind of relapsed because **** it, the world was not fair so why should I pretend.
First it was just fish and seafood, and select seasonal game, then... the rest followed as the dam had been broken. So, I switched to eating meat and fish in a major way (still no dairy though) and as a result have gained some 25 kilos or so of overweight during the last four or so years. So... yeah. Well, I have been known to enjoy adult beverages on occasion, and living the healthy lifestyle of a sedentary office worker who rarely breaks a sweat so that has contributed to that also.
I am currently looking at getting back to a more plant-based diet with occasional game and fish/seafood in the mix for health reasons. This would include cutting down on the calories from food and alcohol, and also, actually moving my ass to break a sweat more regularly.
So, I am looking at diving even deeper into the world of Mediterranean, Japanese, Thai, Malaysian, etc. cuisines, plenty of most excellent plant-based dishes and fare there, expanded a great deal if you don't mind things like dashi or fish sauces (too old to be too militant about things now that 50 is creeping closer, but also, due to that, I do need to start taking my health more seriously).
Will be better for me, and for the planet also.
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
Every time I see a jacked one-ton pickup being driven as a commute or grocery getter, or an overadorned AR-pattern “pistol,” I believe.
This is my current town 100%
DitmasPork
Senior Member
in the States, the term ‘Mediterranean Diet’ is used a lot simply because it’s easy to wrap one’s head around a healthier way of eating, and a healthier lifestyle. I’m a huge fan of the basic concept of the Mediterranean approach towards food, influenced by dietician I’ve chatted with. I do consider the Mediterranean Diet every day when I shop/cook—mainly the ratios of 25% meat/25% carbs/50% plants as my ideal. It’s not dissimilar to the way my grandma cooked, which was very plant-centric, able to feed a crowd with a small amount of meat.Everytime I hear 'mediterranean diet' I have a hard time matching that with what I know of the cuisines of places like Spain, Italy and southern France...
Perhaps the romanticism of the term Mediterranean Diet is useful in getting people on to a healthier path. All good, no harm no foul.
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Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Yeah don't get me wrong I don't think it's a bad idea.... but whenever I see Italian cuisine in a lot of places it doesn't look the same.
I think the main trap (not saying you're falling into it) is that the focus is really on dinner choices. But what I see around me is that plenty of people make the right choices at dinner... but then basically make the wrong choices the rest of the day. So they'll have a healthy dinner... but they'll have horrible lunch and / or too much snacks and other crap.
Even if you take out snacks, for many people breakfast and lunch is very much focused on tanking a lot of carbs.
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The whole med diet thing was an invented name indeed, yet there are some common denominators across varies regions around the Med that likely are less unhealthy than eating what, how much and how often we eat nowadays.
Pasta, sure, loads of carbs potentially but one needs to keep in mind that the heaps of pasta were staple for folks on a budget doing hard manual labor. In other places you see the same, grits, spätzle, käsknöpfle the list is long....in our 'modern' society where for many folks manual labor is opening a box and loading a new stack of paper in the office printer eating a heaped plate of carbs loaded with cream and or cheese is not needed (nor a good idea), start hand mowing fields for a few weeks somewhere high up in the alps and you'll start to understand you need to eat a boatload and it makes sense that alpine farmers grew the habit of eating like 7 meals a day.
We simply are not smart enough to tone down our appetite based on physical activity and choose wisely, all the gyms in the world will not even that equation (a plate of pasta equals an awful lot of exercise) and too much exercise is not healthy either ....perhaps we will evolve at some point and get it ...
BTW, I'm not a big believer in changing the somewhat cynical agricultural system (largely a result of WWII food shortages) from outside other than through changed consumer behaviour, so lets educate our kids and change the system from within.
Pasta, sure, loads of carbs potentially but one needs to keep in mind that the heaps of pasta were staple for folks on a budget doing hard manual labor. In other places you see the same, grits, spätzle, käsknöpfle the list is long....in our 'modern' society where for many folks manual labor is opening a box and loading a new stack of paper in the office printer eating a heaped plate of carbs loaded with cream and or cheese is not needed (nor a good idea), start hand mowing fields for a few weeks somewhere high up in the alps and you'll start to understand you need to eat a boatload and it makes sense that alpine farmers grew the habit of eating like 7 meals a day.
We simply are not smart enough to tone down our appetite based on physical activity and choose wisely, all the gyms in the world will not even that equation (a plate of pasta equals an awful lot of exercise) and too much exercise is not healthy either ....perhaps we will evolve at some point and get it ...
BTW, I'm not a big believer in changing the somewhat cynical agricultural system (largely a result of WWII food shortages) from outside other than through changed consumer behaviour, so lets educate our kids and change the system from within.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
In my first climbing vacation in the alps I lost about 8 kilos in the first 2 weeks. Managed to remain fairly stable the weeks after that when my hunger caught up. Managed to gain most of it back in another 2 weeks or so. Going to a pizza place and eating 2 whole pizzas tends to do that to you...
Actually I somewhat disagree on this point. Something definitly has changed in the last 50 years. There's been plenty of research showing that most people in the 50s or before then working outside of agriculture weren't necessarily much more physically active than people today...yet obesity and welfare diseases were far less of a problem. If you eat the right things the body is actually fairly decent at keeping itself balanced.
As to the argiculture system that's a tough one. Because I don't know if we'd actually be able to properly feed the world by essentially rolling back the green revolution. I try to go for organic and 'good stuff, largely because it's the safer bet for my own health, but I'm not sure that kind of diet would actually be viable if you tried to copy-paste that to the entire world population.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Ultimately, ‘Mediterranean’ way of eating is just a term, it’s just to convey ratios of meat/carb/plant in meal compositions to eaters wanting a healthier diet—not a description of how all people in the Mediterranean actually eat. Baby steps towards a certain direction.Yeah don't get me wrong I don't think it's a bad idea.... but whenever I see Italian cuisine in a lot of places it doesn't look the same.
I think the main trap (not saying you're falling into it) is that the focus is really on dinner choices. But what I see around me is that plenty of people make the right choices at dinner... but then basically make the wrong choices the rest of the day. So they'll have a healthy dinner... but they'll have horrible lunch and / or too much snacks and other crap.
Even if you take out snacks, for many people breakfast and lunch is very much focused on tanking a lot of carbs.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
How many people actually achieve that 25/50/25 ratio though, unless they're basically on a glutenfree or paleo diet? Basically as soon as you eat bread or cereal for lunch or breakfast you're already on your max for the carbs/grains for that day. It's actually quite a challenge in today's modern and fast-moving society. And that's without even introducing snacks and drinks into the equation.
Ironically I think all the programs trying to encourage people to 'always have breakfast' might actually be counterproductive in this light... especially when you look at all the data points suggesting potential benefits of periodic fasting - which is at least for me most easily achieved by just skipping breakfast.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
As I’d mentioned earlier in my comments, 25/25/50 is the ideal, the objective, a guide that I consider everyday—usually I get close (having a vegetarian wife is helpful); when traveling, on special occasions, holidays I’ll indulge. I’m not obsessive about meal meat/carb/plant meal composition—my objectives are losing a little weight, keeping cholesterol and sugar levels in check, and gotta stay fit/look good for my job.
25/25/50 isn’t difficult.
Most of my NYC circle of friends are quite food/health aware, and not big meat eaters. Many in my Brooklyn neighborhood are not so aware, based on my habit of snooping into other’s shopping baskets at the supermarket.
I'm confused now. If we truly cared about the environment we would not have kids. We also would not do anything to prolong our own lives. And don't get me started on pets...
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Your comment can be interpreted as somewhat cynical.
Baby steps—everyone can't do everything to make the world a better place—some do it through food/cooking, size of car driven, voting, or whatever.
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it's easy to take things further and go into the black and white arena...the environment will thrive already when we take a small step back...plastic not used, dino juice not burnt for fuel or electricity, miles not driven or even better ; not flown, decreased meat/dairy intake.
It's not about halting human life as we know it, that point will come eventually when we do not change enough and the world aka our environment (which is a weird way of looking the habitat which is the same for all creatures and plants) will see to that yet it will survive and re-invent itself without us. Not now or anytime soon...but with a reasonable guarantee.
Well, my grandma told me if I didn't eat everything I'll go to hell... so just trying to make sure I don't end up there.
***funny thing is that she was vegetarian... I think by habit, not necessarily by choice... oily meat made her feel sick.
***funny thing is that she was vegetarian... I think by habit, not necessarily by choice... oily meat made her feel sick.
I guess also interesting tidbit from Asian culture, many people believe that because we are X people that we have to eat differently and even to the point medicine applies to us differently...
had some very interesting eyebrow raising convos about this with the aunties and uncles.... like how we need to eat more veggies than white people....
had some very interesting eyebrow raising convos about this with the aunties and uncles.... like how we need to eat more veggies than white people....
DitmasPork
Senior Member
My grandma told me that bread crusts were the healthiest part of bread, and that I'll get Appendicitis if I swallow grape seeds.
Wait... you are telling me its not true?????????
concernedparent
Well-Known Member
All true. But there isn't one culprit or a silver-bullet solution. And if there was, it certainly tied to any form of personal consumption but likely the policies and practices of large corporations and governments. However, I don't believe perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good when it comes to making ethical or philosophical choices.
While consuming less meat may not be all that impactful in the grand scheme of things it's among the easiest changes to make. In contrast, personal use vehicles might be one of the biggest single-sources of emissions in the US. Yet it's only responsible for something like 15% of all US emissions. However to make any sort of significant dent in personal vehicle miles traveled we have to undo a hundred years of bad land use/urban planning, and create (from basically scratch) new mass transit options. Work, school, and errand commutes are simply not feasible without the automobile in most places in this country; reducing red meat consumption by 1/2 or more can be done tomorrow. Of course the Dutch context is different but I'd imagine many of your other more significant options to reduce emissions are also politically, practically, or economically infeasible, or require long time horizons.
Overreliance on non-seasonal, non-local produce should also be criticized too.
I live in California so I cannot and will not defend nut production lol.
No what I mean is that... all else being equal, a chicken growing in 72 days having plenty of space will invariably consume more food to create a kg of protein, and will individually have a higher CO2 footprint on stuff like housing (because the cost of the barn is divided through less animals) than some caged industry animal who grows up in 39 days.
That's just a fact, without any subsidies or any other externalities coming into play. Animal cruelty has a cost to the animal but not to the planet.
Don't get me wrong; I also prefer happy animals and usually higher-welfare animals is what I get (because they're tastier and the 'safer bet' from a health perspective), but they do actually score worse on certain factors (food inputs, CO2 foot print, water consumption).
Yet there often seems to be an implicit assumption that 'happier animal means better for the environment' that is often not the case at all.
In the bigger picture you can't just say 'well everyone will just eat half'. That's not a solution, that's starvation.
I understand your point that pound for pound it's less (environmentally and economically) efficient to raise "happy" animals. I don't think we have any disagreement. "Happy" animals are more environmentally damaging than conventional factory farming if they are consumed in the same amount or whatever the equilibrium point making them equivalent is. I'm making separate points that, 1: that the amount of consumption is in large part driven by prices which are artificially low because of terrible practices as well as other unaccounted for costs, and 2: that consumption should be lower. The increased cost of animal products from happy animal policies would likely reduce consumption. Would it reduce consumption enough to be less ecologically damaging than the current factory farming state of affairs? I don't know, maybe. But throw in prices that also reflect externalized costs and we'd eat very differently.
Just quickly looking up the stats, Americans consume 124 kg of meat per year, Dutch people consume 76 kg of meat. It's not half but it's a significant difference. Considering how tall, fit you Dutchies are compared to us I'd hardly say you're starving.
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I've got news for you...it might well be true...
Even the circadian rythm affects the effect of many medicines, a largely unstudied realm of science, but undeniably so.
DNA specific medicine is getting closer and closer, have a look at how the formula for glomerular filtration rate changes for being male female or black recently.
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well, we make up for less meat by eating ginormous quantities of cheese while wearing our wooden shoes ;-)Just quickly looking up the stats, Americans consume 124 kg of meat per year, Dutch people consume 76 kg of meat. It's not half but it's a significant difference. Considering how tall, fit you Dutchies are compared to us I'd hardly say you're starving.
(larger problem here is that we grow a gazillion pigs/chicken/cows and some other animals I forgot, to export, so per square mile we are far outnumbered by industrially kept animals)
