Hi from germany

[jaydee]

Hi folks,
new here although it doesn´t feel that new,
as (IIRC) this is an offspring of the kitchen knife section of the old knifeforums where I used to be a member.

Feels more like being a dry alcoholic who stopped at the petrol station to get a beer ;-)
Just kidding.
Got sensible over the years and have only relatively low value left in knives.

Fortunately clinged on to my Murray Carter wabocho (~20cm santoku style) which is a really nice blade.
A 270 Mac Pro gyuto ist still left which was my entry drug after watching Jamie Oliver wielding it around in his "oliver´s twist" series.

Unfortunately gave away 210mm Tojiro DP gyuto which was 40$ when first offered by JCK. Good times, they are 3x that price now.
Same for my Mizuno Akitada Hontanren 240 gyuto which was ~250$ at the time I got it.
Absolutely amazing steel and I have regrets I sold that relatively cheaply now that its more like double the price.

Registered after seaching around for Zakharov´s knives.
Saw his website and ended up with an impulse order although I sweared I never get another stainless knife for the kitchen
(other than maybe a paring knife/petty).
Looking forward to that one and will post it here hopefully soon.

Best regards from Fürstenwalde, germany
Jens

 

[daveb]

Welcome

@Matus

 

[Benuser]

Welcome aboard, Jens!

 

[Matus]

Herzlich willkommen

 

[jaydee]

Thanks guys/gals for the welcome.
I can already see this is a nice place to hang out and see lots of good knives.
Here´s my modest collections or better yet, the remains of.
Watanabe Nakiri and Mizuno gyuto unfortunately had to go at one point as they were collecting dust;
despite the amazing steel and looks.
The MAC pro 270 I might offer here too at one point as for the moment this has become just a decadent pizza cutter.
Will probably rather get something new to play with, that actually sees good use.
My girlfriend uses the 180mm gyuto a lot (forgot the maker but it was not even 40$ 15y ago). I do like it too and use it but it lacks a little height for me..
Might get another one/similar one with more height. Maybe a bunka. We´ll see.
Cheers and have a good weekend!
Jens
PS.: The rest: Wüsthoff super slicer, Hiromoto G3 sujihiki 210mm, Tojiro 120mm petty (too short thus little use), unknown santoku bought from Dictum.com. Diverse "sheep foot" paring knives not shown. (german brands mostly molybdenum or similar steels for handheld cutting)

 

[Benuser]

About a 180mm with plenty of width: Masahiro Virgin Carbon. Don't know about their stainless ones: check the specifications.

 

[jaydee]

Thanks Benuser for the hint.
You know women, at least most of them, don´t obsess about tools as much as men do
so I think she´s fine with the gyuto we have, which has a height of 40mm.
So at the moment it is more of a "want" rather than a "need" for myself.

I´ll see what the Zakharov 220mm gyuto will be like first.
Maybe I get another custom one from him if I should like the steel he uses
and the transaction goes well.

 

[Jovidah]

Zakharov knives... the maker from western Ukraine? Would be very interested in a write-up on that one!
And yeah I share your pain about the prices from 5-10 years ago... I could have saved a fortune if I had invested earlier back then...
Regarding the 180... I could be wrong but maybe it IS a Masahiro?

 

[jaydee]

Zakharov knives... the maker from western Ukraine? Would be very interested in a write-up on that one!
And yeah I share your pain about the prices from 5-10 years ago... I could have saved a fortune if I had invested earlier back then...
Regarding the 180... I could be wrong but maybe it IS a Masahiro?

Yes, that´s the one.
His knives are beautiful and his handles look just perfect.
I ordered a simple octagonal one with ironwood but his western ones seem just as nice.
It was the profile that caught my eye and then I looked him up.
https://knife-art.de/product/zakharov-gyuto-205mm-wuesteneisenholz-ukraine-hilfe/Unbelievable prices for custom knives. Mine will be 140$.
I only worry about the performance of N690 at high hardness.
Not that I need lots of reliability as a lowly home cook but I read the steel can get chippy above HRC58.
Maybe a lone opinion..There´s lots of outdoor knives with N690 at HRC60 so..
The grind is not laser-like though so that will help some.

This is another tasteful handle of his that I really like and that is not too fancy and colourful:
https://zakharovknives.com/knives/new-product_36
Yeah, if we would have known how prices go, we could have bought dozens of Watanabe´s, Carter´s and Mizuno´s years ago and now sell them for 2-3x the price!
The little gyuto is not a Masahiro. I remember that much.
I´ll see if I can make sense of the Kanji.

 

[jaydee]

The little gyuto is not a Masahiro. I remember that much.

Found knives at Miura knives whose looks and price fit my little gyuto:
Kanematsu Carbon nihonko. (51€ for a 180mm gyuto)
https://miuraknives.com/japanese-kn...7-japanese-knife-kanematsu.html#/35-size-18cmThe knife box actually says "Kanetsune".
And to complicate things further, a shop in germany has Kanetsune knives and a series called "Kanetsune Minamoto Kanemasa".
https://www.scharfesjapan.de/kochmesser/kanetsune-messer/kanetsune-minamoto-kanemasa
Anyway, quite a capable steel that gets very sharp and only needs to be sharpened a little more often than your "typical" shirogami/aogami.

 

[boblob]

Herzlich willkommen @jaydee

 

[miggus]

Grüß Gott, @jaydee

 

[Michael J.R.]

Moin @jaydee

 

[miggus]

Found knives at Miura knives whose looks and price fit my little gyuto:
Kanematsu Carbon nihonko. (51€ for a 180mm gyuto)
https://miuraknives.com/japanese-kn...7-japanese-knife-kanematsu.html#/35-size-18cmThe knife box actually says "Kanetsune".
And to complicate things further, a shop in germany has Kanetsune knives and a series called "Kanetsune Minamoto Kanemasa".
https://www.scharfesjapan.de/kochmesser/kanetsune-messer/kanetsune-minamoto-kanemasa

That rings a bell. I believe this is some kind of joint production that is labelled by customers in different ways. There certainly is a nice word for that kind of practice.
I think I have a knife from the same origin. It's the damascus line, but it also is being sold under different names: Kotetsu, Minamoto Kotetsu, Kumadori and I've seen others, too. Very similar to your knife, but made out of VG10 with damascus cladding.

C*** used to have both lines. But they're almost gone now.

Even if it's not the same factory, I believe the principle of manufacturing / selling is the same.

Yes, that´s the one.
His knives are beautiful and his handles look just perfect.
I ordered a simple octagonal one with ironwood but his western ones seem just as nice.
It was the profile that caught my eye and then I looked him up.
https://knife-art.de/product/zakharov-gyuto-205mm-wuesteneisenholz-ukraine-hilfe/

Very interesting looking indeed. The differences in price are somewhat puzzling. Knife-Art explains that they donate the entire margin, but why are their knives so much more expensive on etsy? Almost 2x the price.

Anyhow, I was considering buying the Mr. Black as a christmas gift for someone. Looks quite interesting.

 

[jaydee]

Anyhow, I was considering buying the Mr. Black as a christmas gift for someone. Looks quite interesting.

Servus Miggus and yeah, I let you know when the knife is finished, asap.
Should be any day but who knows.
This smith´s country unfortunately is in war..

When I ordered he said he needs 3-4 weeks to finish the knife and then sends a photo beforehand.
Handles are probably made in the meantime.
Yes, the Etsy prices are puzzling!

 

[valdim]

Welcome @jaydee !

I can already see this is a nice place to hang out and see lots of good knives.

And lots of good guys, too!
I am sure you will enjoy the conversations here. At some point you will feel as cozy as in your kitchen.

 

[Benuser]

Found knives at Miura knives whose looks and price fit my little gyuto:
Kanematsu Carbon nihonko. (51€ for a 180mm gyuto)
https://miuraknives.com/japanese-kn...7-japanese-knife-kanematsu.html#/35-size-18cmThe knife box actually says "Kanetsune".
And to complicate things further, a shop in germany has Kanetsune knives and a series called "Kanetsune Minamoto Kanemasa".
https://www.scharfesjapan.de/kochmesser/kanetsune-messer/kanetsune-minamoto-kanemasa
Anyway, quite a capable steel that gets very sharp and only needs to be sharpened a little more often than your "typical" shirogami/aogami.

There's a bit more to say about these Kanetsune carbons. I've got a 210 for little money, and found it an excellent option when there are budget restraints. The steel: around 61Rc, much harder than Misono's Swedish, not especially reactive, good stuff. The handle is remarkably comfortable if that matters. Now, I'm perfectly familiar with factory edges who are hardly usable, but this was an extreme case: a chisel grind, 20° on the right side, only deburred by buffing on the other side. Far too thick behind the edge. Those are the limitations of CNC, I guess. If one is prepared to do some serious work with a really coarse stone it's an interesting option. What I've have done is giving it a more or less standard asymmetric geometry edge, following the right side's curvature.
Once that done I can't say I had any complaints about edge retention. That said, if I love shirogami, edge retention is far from the first quality who comes into mind. As for the aogami, much will depend on which aogami exactly and the choices of the one who made the Heat Treatment. Some Aogami Super do offer an exceptional edge retention. Have geometry in mind when speaking of edge retention. A fat blade behind the edge will require a lot of force, which leads to heavy board contact. The same steel properly thinned behind the edge can be combined with a conservative edge without loss of performance, and result in spectacular edge retention, if that matters.

 

[jaydee]

The steel: around 61Rc, much harder than Misono's Swedish, not especially reactive, good stuff.

Totally agree. Had a 240mm Misono swedish too and steels are pretty similar as far as I remember.
The Misono also had an edge grind with heavy bias just like the Kanetsune.
I´m in the process of thinning mine but need to get some more sandpaper.
My stones didn´t do much; with a diamond plate (~325 grit) it took much effort to remove very little.

We´ll see what edge a thinned knife with that steel can take.
I don´t expect it to be a perfect triangle with no microbevel.
That´s the beauty of those superior steels.

The handle is remarkably comfortable if that matters.

Handles fortunately are much easier to "tune" to your liking than the blade.
Had a Tojiro DP gyuto that had a really nice profile (and steel too) but a poor handle.
Don´t know the wood exactly. Felt like MDF or so and was easy to sand the edges off. Some tung or linseed oil and you´re good to go!

 

[Benuser]

The Misono also had an edge grind with heavy bias just like the Kanetsune.

Not exactly. The edge is somewhere off-centered at two-thirds with a Misono, while with the Kanetsune it's close to 100%. More than with a Honesuki. Putting a 20° straight bevel on the dominant side is not such a good idea. A lot of work to the end-user. That was why I spoke of a chisel grind. The only reason was cheap production. These Kanetsune cost a third of a Misono.
There are excellent reasons for the asymmetry as you will find with the Misonos and other Japanese double-bevelled knives, as long as you're a right-hander. The Japanese have followed the idea of Sabatier around 1890 to have one side more convexed, while the other one was flatter for its largest part. By off-centering it to the left they could reduce the curve on the left side and increase the convexity of the right side, which enhanced food release. They could do so as left-handers were ignored in Japanese culture.
By the way, I sharpen my vintage Sabs exactly in the same way. They work much better if the right bevel forms one continuous arc with the right face. For the left side, see what's necessary to make steering acceptable to the user. That's very individual. Standard is a straight bevel at a higher angle, causing a bit more friction. If one is already used to some asymmetry you may apply a convex bevel as well.

 

[jaydee]

Not exactly. The edge is somewhere off-centered at two-thirds with a Misono, while with the Kanetsune it's close to 100%.

Yes. I was generalizing a lot in my last post. The Kanetsune was like a chisel.
Slowly going away from that towards symmetry revealed the not so thin part behind the edge.
That´s why I need to thin.
I have seen a couple knives with SK steel with that grind for probably the reasons you have given.
Hitohira vintage series has the same steel but is ground much more thin though so I´m optimistic I can tune that nice little knife to a thinner edge.

 

[Benuser]

Yes. I was generalizing a lot in my last post. The Kanetsune was like a chisel.
Slowly going away from that towards symmetry revealed the not so thin part behind the edge.

I made the Kanefusa moderately asymmetric, a bit like most Japanase knives are. I prefer not to make any edge symmetric if I don't have to. For me, as a right-hander, the best edges have a right bevel that follows the right face. Keeping the edge off-centered is no problem as long as I'm the only user and don't have to share it with others. My hand has got used to more or less asymmetric blades and adapts very easily, so steering is no longer a problem, just as you can cut perfectly straight with a honesuki, provided you got used to it. Strictly symmetric ones feel weird to me. I once had to clean-up an original Trompette Sab for a friend from these forums, and I asked him whether I could use the knife some time before deciding what to do with it. He was so kind to agree about it. So I put rapidly a working edge on it, without thinking too much, just following the existing one, but the knife felt so weird and I was so surprised that I wrote him: I didn't know your were a left hander, that will make things much more complicated. Well, he wasn't, but had always used a strictly symmetric sharpening. It was quite a lesson I've learned.

 

[Benuser]

An excellent overview of the question:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/a-basic-explanation-of-asymmetry.33951/

 

[Benuser]

On a side note: serious steering has often nothing to do with geometry, but is due to a remaining burr causing major friction on one side, as once @Pensacola Tiger noticed.

 

[jaydee]

Thanks for all those infos, Benuser.
Interesting read.
And yeah, burrs can be nasty and often go unnoticed. Only recently started stropping kitchen knives. At the moment with cardboard or chopping board as i dont like to get a stone out just for a quick honing.
Am about to make a bigger leather strop for them. I have a small one for chisels and razors and results are very nice.

Btw:Zakharov is delayed with my knife but hopefully will hear from him soon.

 

[jaydee]

It took way longer than anticipated (3-4w): ~10w or so but the knife is finished but still with the blacksmith Zakharov.
It is quite beatifully finished and the grind, as far as one can tell, looks good too.

Oh, and did I mention I bought a Yoshikazu Ikeda 210mm and 240mm Wakui in the meantime.
Both really really good cutters and nicely finished blades. Very happy with both purchases.
On a positive note: I now have enough knives for the next ten years!
My girlfriend thinks so too BTW...

 

[jaydee]

It is finally here.
Almost impeccable fit&finish were not surprising after seeing the video.
Spine is nicely rounded, grind perfect.
Handle is so spotless and with no transistions from bolster to handle.
Geometry of the blade works well for me so far. Rocking and chopping seem just fine.
The knife keeps me push cutting but don´t ask me why. Just works very well.
Will see how the steel holds up.

BTW: Zakharov makes knives with K110, N690, and M390 too.
Lamination with stainless damascus possible also.
I inquired as I wanted to suggest he should start forging with carbon too.
Maybe I should get a M390 blade before he starts raising prices too.