How much blade length variance do you expect/accept?

[VincenteFox]

For instance, a 240 gyuto might show up at 236mm. What about 230? 225? 260?

How far off the listed spec do you chalk up to the expected variation between knives before you feel like you aren't getting the length you ordered?

 

[M1k3]

220-230 is probably Sakai.

260 is probably Sanjo. Or Sakai 270.

If it's a Western maker, someone goofed on measuring.

 

[superworrier]

Discounting difference in measuring system:

Within 5 is definitely acceptable, and even expected.
Difference of 10 is pretty borderline
Similarly in height, I would say within 1 is acceptable, >=2 is borderline.
If it's off by more than 10mm in length or 2mm in height, I would say it's not within spec. Ideally though, it would be half that variation. If it's actually off by that much, I'm not too happy but maybe I would feel bad rejecting it (but maybe I shouldn't be?).

 

[Heckel7302]

Discounting difference in measuring system:

Within 5 is definitely acceptable, and even expected.
Difference of 10 is pretty borderline
Similarly in height, I would say within 1 is acceptable, >=2 is borderline.
If it's off by more than 10mm in length or 2mm in height, I would say it's not within spec. Ideally though, it would be half that variation. If it's actually off by that much, I'm not too happy but maybe I would feel bad rejecting it (but maybe I shouldn't be?).

Agree.

Must be what takeda just says small, medium, and large. Avoiding false advertising.

 

[Choppin]

I'd say within 5mm is ideal, approaching 10mm it starts bothering me.

 

[esoo]

The problem with saying a knife is X length is where that is measured.

Sakai measure handle to tip. I've got a Sakai that is stated as a 240, but measures 218 at the edge (and is not 240 handle to tip). Most Sakai only lose around 10mm for edge

Sanjo takes edge lengths and tend to run long.

When you go to Western's, the current trend of swept back heels can make knives feel shorter than they are, so the number becomes a bit meaningless with our look at the knife itself.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

It's pretty interesting that there isn't an agreed-upon method of measuring knife lengths. Maybe someone should send an email to ISO and ask them to get their act together.

 

[labor of love]

Just say edge length when discussing knife lengths.
The cool thing about Sakai knives is sometimes I am in the mood for a 225-230mm knife

 

[ModRQC]

There are known exceptions: they've been outlined well already, but I'd add Sukenari as a Sakai-like variation, and many factory knives being rather of the Sakai kind (Zwilling Japan/Miyabi I've seen), or the rather typically-Sanjo longer kind (Misono I've seen).

It's mostly cry-baby: I mean, yeah you'll learn pretty fast of the lingering exceptions, but really longer/shorter can come both ways: good or bad. Like anything else of a blade, it really comes down to the making, and the sought equilibrium, which often times exotic aftermarket handles just destroy.

But really? If the equilibrium is thoughtful, and if you didn't immediately take the ruler to the knife, at least Gyutos of each categories will in the end pretty much feel like what they're called at.

My beef is rather with shorter knives. A 165mm Nakiri that is really 153mm? A 180mm Santoku that is 167mm? And worst of it being, there you can't always count on "Gyuto exceptions" keeping where they are. Many Sanjo Nakiris/Santokus/Bunkas are quite shorter than specs, for instance. Sukenari tend to match more closely. Sakai are still usually following their rule, but it might scale down to closer to 5 under, or almost a match. That's the total mayhem category where even 5mm can be a blow towards expectations. 10mm in those shorter lengths entirely destroy the category they're supposed to be in. For Gyutos beyond 200mm, it doesn't pose such a threat as long as you're aware of the usual tendencies, and even if you're not, it will probably work very well where it's at despite 10mm +/-.

However for blade width, I see a different calculation of causalities. Even 1mm narrower can feel close to a disaster. 2-3mm wider is usually mostly welcomed, especially in those quantities where it's a lottery and you're hoping for a score, like with TF. 50mm wide for a 210mm is customary, but 47-48 is not altogether rare, nor 52-53mm, but any mm below 50 will feel much more dramatic than any mm above. It becomes more critical for the quite standardized 210-46 and 240-50 kind of blades. These guys are already flirting the too-narrow place to start with. 1mm less is already way too much.

 

[tostadas]

It partly comes down to how a blade should be measured. I posed this question and got some mixed responses from the community.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/correct-way-to-measure-length.64223/

 

[JASinIL2006]

If sellers would just post the actual specs for blades (e.g., edge length, length from handle to tip, total length) it would make things much simpler.

 

[ModRQC]

If sellers would just post the actual specs for blades (e.g., edge length, length from handle to tip, total length) it would make things much simpler.

It’s a bit of a double edge blade for them. If they publish precise specs for one they expect some buyers to complain their’s was different. Still some do but add specs can differ. Some revert to generic and count on buyers to ask questions if it is a crucial matter to them. Especially useful with recurring batches: the generic template always fit.

 

[Choppin]

My beef is rather with shorter knives. A 165mm Nakiri that is really 153mm? A 180mm Santoku that is 167mm? And worst of it being, there you can't always count on "Gyuto exceptions" keeping where they are. Many Sanjo Nakiris/Santokus/Bunkas are quite shorter than specs, for instance. Sukenari tend to match more closely. Sakai are still usually following their rule, but it might scale down to closer to 5 under, or almost a match. That's the total mayhem category where even 5mm can be a blow towards expectations. 10mm in those shorter lengths entirely destroy the category they're supposed to be in. For Gyutos beyond 200mm, it doesn't pose such a threat as long as you're aware of the usual tendencies, and even if you're not, it will probably work very well where it's at despite 10mm +/-.

Exactly. A few months ago I ordered an Ikenami 180 bannou but received one 165 long. That's a whole different knife! For small knives, small changes make a ton of difference.

The ideal scenario for me would be knowing exactly the dimensions of the knife I'm buying. I get that's not very practical for vendors and it's one of the reasons I buy most of my knives from BST.

Also, Sakai dimensions are the best - love 255-60 gyutos and 225 sujis!

 

[blokey]

Some makers actually have a template they could use, some would use pre determined stamping machine, in those case the size are very consistent

 

[ModRQC]

Exactly. A few months ago I ordered an Ikenami 180 bannou but received one 165 long. That's a whole different knife! For small knives, small changes make a ton of difference.

The ideal scenario for me would be knowing exactly the dimensions of the knife I'm buying. I get that's not very practical for vendors and it's one of the reasons I buy most of my knives from BST.

Also, Sakai dimensions are the best - love 255-60 gyutos and 225 sujis!

IME most vendors will oblige with taking one or a few out and sending you specifics. Once upon a time it's the only way I would order a knife. After dozens of them, I just sort of know what/when to avoid. Other vendors are your friends as well - a bit of cross comparison of specs for a given unit and you get the idea pretty precisely.

 

[Choppin]

IME most vendors will oblige with taking one or a few out and sending you specifics. Once upon a time it's the only way I would order a knife. After dozens of them, I just sort of know what/when to avoid. Other vendors are your friends as well - a bit of cross comparison of specs for a given unit and you get the idea pretty precisely.

Agree. I got the Ikenami from Rakuten, should have bought from Michael at KJ and asked him for actual specs.

 

[icanhaschzbrgr]

When you order a custom knife, the maker can charge you per mm of length. In that case I'd expect to get exactly the length I've paid.

Knives should be measured at the edge. Period. I mean one could provide multiple measurements, but the edge length is what really counts.

 

[ModRQC]

When you order a custom knife, the maker can charge you per mm of length. In that case I'd expect to get exactly the length I've paid.

Knives should be measured at the edge. Period. I mean one could provide multiple measurements, but the edge length is what really counts.

I’ve had two custom from two different makers. I don’t think they charge per mm as much as for the general idea of the contract you’re giving them. If they have to order extra stock to fit such requirements then yeah maybe there’s an extra overhead to consider for them. But they’ll tell you steel is very much the lesser expense. What that steel requires of work and material wear is another idea entirely.

 

[icanhaschzbrgr]

I’ve had two custom from two different makers. I don’t think they charge per mm as much as for the general idea of the contract you’re giving them. If they have to order extra stock to fit such requirements then yeah maybe there’s an extra overhead to consider for them. But they’ll tell you steel is very much the lesser expense. What that steel requires of work and material wear is another idea entirely.

My custom order with Marko Tsourkan was charged per mm of length. It was quite a long ago, so no idea if it's still the case. The main point here was of you charge per mm, then please make sure you deliver exact length. I don't think this thread is the right place to talk about custom makers pricing

 

[ModRQC]

My custom order with Marko Tsourkan was charged per mm of length. It was quite a long ago, so no idea if it's still the case. The main point here was of you charge per mm, then please make sure you deliver exact length. I don't think this thread is the right place to talk about custom makers pricing

Well if its one of his regular steel/handle that you're just asking specifics about blade measurements, I guess it can make good sense to charge per mm. I mean for these he'd know exactly of the cost implied and could simplify it that way, especially if that price is advertised on his webfront, meaning customers can easily deduce the price of what they have in mind. Might make his life easier then.

 

[mpier]

I will tell you that there is a vendor out there that is extremely honest on measurements, there 165mm Nakiri was listed and came to me at 168mm, the same knife is listed on other sites as a 170mm. I am also looking at a sujihiki listed at 260mm that was measured at 261mm where other sites have a 262mm listed as a 270mm. I think different vendors seam to extrapolate measurements for the sale, a 240mm sounds better than a 230mm and so on.

 

[superworrier]

I will tell you that there is a vendor out there that is extremely honest on measurements, there 165mm Nakiri was listed and came to me at 168mm, the same knife is listed on other sites as a 170mm. I am also looking at a sujihiki listed at 260mm that was measured at 261mm where other sites have a 262mm listed as a 270mm. I think different vendors seam to extrapolate measurements for the sale, a 240mm sounds better than a 230mm and so on.

Are you talking about single piece knives or something else? There will be a lot of variation between individual knives unless it's laser cut (and even then the grinding process can cause differences)

 

[mpier]

I realize there is variations in a batch of knives that come out from a single maker, I’ve been buying knives long enough to know that. Some makers though are very consistent on their measurements only off by a couple of mm here and there. What I am referring to is vendors that clearly list knives at a measurement that is always higher than the knives in that batch. I know why they do it and most of the time that measurement is coming from the maker I would assume, but a couple of vendors I buy from are very on the mark about what the listed measurements are and what the true ones are, this way for instance if I’m looking for a 270mm sujihiki I’m not wasting time looking at long 240mm knives. I will admit though a couple of knives I purchased that came short, like 10mm short are actually very useful but if I’m buying a slicer I want it as advertised.

 

[mpier]

Discounting difference in measuring system:

Within 5 is definitely acceptable, and even expected.
Difference of 10 is pretty borderline
Similarly in height, I would say within 1 is acceptable, >=2 is borderline.
If it's off by more than 10mm in length or 2mm in height, I would say it's not within spec. Ideally though, it would be half that variation. If it's actually off by that much, I'm not too happy but maybe I would feel bad rejecting it (but maybe I shouldn't be?).

I would agree with everything said here!!

 

[VincenteFox]

I will tell you that there is a vendor out there that is extremely honest on measurements, there 165mm Nakiri was listed and came to me at 168mm, the same knife is listed on other sites as a 170mm. I am also looking at a sujihiki listed at 260mm that was measured at 261mm where other sites have a 262mm listed as a 270mm. I think different vendors seam to extrapolate measurements for the sale, a 240mm sounds better than a 230mm and so on.

It's worth noting that 168mm is closer to 170 than 165...

 

[mpier]

It's worth noting that 168mm is closer to 170 than 165...

True but the one listed at 170mm was actually only 164mm when I called to get the actual measurements. I guess what I’m saying is it’s just nice when vendors knives are a little longer than shorter when listed. Most shop have a pretty good brake down of what they’re selling though. Lately I’ve seen knives listed at 270mm but the actual measurements are like 155mm and that is annoying to me.

 

[bahamaroot]

...Lately I’ve seen knives listed at 270mm but the actual measurements are like 155mm and that is annoying to me.

Yeah, I'd be annoyed too if my knife came in 115mm short too....

 

[mpier]

Yeah, I'd be annoyed too if my knife came in 115mm short too....

Ya meant 255mm, might want to read before pressing send lol

 

[esoo]

Try having a knife come in way less on the weight: 131g listed and arrived at 118g.

That makes a bigger difference to me.

 

[Jovidah]

Or heavier... listed as 150 lbs... coming in at 300 lbs...and the wrong gender to boot!