How often do you thin?

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You are both true but still it does not look same if you properly refinish the knife. But in the future I will start doing it like this regularly = thinning a bit when I sharpen. I really hate when I need to do big thinning.

I tried this 2 weeks ago with my Watanabe 240. It was OK and at the end I forced the patina so it does not look that bad, but still way off what it looked before.
Yeah, that's the idea of a thinning bevel for me. I'm thinning every time I sharpen until I'm happy with how the blade cuts. Between sharpening sessions I do minimal cosmetic things until the edge and shoulders are how I want them. I'm not really interested in comepletely refinishing the blade until the thinning work is complete. And by refinishing I mean several grits of auto sand paper and then lots of time with micro pads. It just doesn't make sense to deal with all that stuff over and over again every time I thin a knife.
 
How exactly does thinning play out in convex bevels? From where I stand, there are 2 possible scenarios (without taking the effort to flatten the bevel): 1) lower the angle to get to the area immediately behind the edge or 2) lower the angle even more to work on the shoulders (here my bevel is laying flat on the stones). Do you guys usually do one of these, or both?
 
How exactly does thinning play out in convex bevels? From where I stand, there are 2 possible scenarios (without taking the effort to flatten the bevel): 1) lower the angle to get to the area immediately behind the edge or 2) lower the angle even more to work on the shoulders (her my bevel is laying flat on the stones). Do you guys usually do one of these, or both?

I do both scenarios, start with your second scenario on medium to fine grid stones and finish with your first scenario with a few strokes on very fine stones.
 
Wow, great responses so far. Thanks so much for the insight. Choppin posted a good question about convex bevels - anyone have any input? Also can you a knife that has a standard bevel (not sure what the name would be for 'standard') a concave bevel, ie, my henckles?
 
How exactly does thinning play out in convex bevels? From where I stand, there are 2 possible scenarios (without taking the effort to flatten the bevel): 1) lower the angle to get to the area immediately behind the edge or 2) lower the angle even more to work on the shoulders (her my bevel is laying flat on the stones). Do you guys usually do one of these, or both?

You took out all of my fun as I was going to say flatten them...That really is what I would do though.
 
Wow, great responses so far. Thanks so much for the insight. Choppin posted a good question about convex bevels - anyone have any input? Also can you a knife that has a standard bevel (not sure what the name would be for 'standard') a concave bevel, ie, my henckles?

What Henckels do you have that it has a concave bevel?
 
Murry Carter has a video on [video=youtube;UdEe9sEQRcE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEe9sEQRcE[/video].

Does one sharpen the edge first, then thin? Does the order matter? It seems like working on the edge first would be the right order, because then you can determine how much to thin behind the edge.
 
No, it's juts the opposite, first thin and then do the cutting edge.
 
I do both scenarios, start with your second scenario on medium to fine grid stones and finish with your first scenario with a few strokes on very fine stones.

That makes sense... probably a way to thin while maintaining the convexity (to some extent)


You took out all of my fun as I was going to say flatten them...That really is what I would do though.

I guess you would have to do that at some point, certainly when you need to do more serious thinning. But probably the 2-step process outlined above would delay that need for serious thinning and maintain the convexity until then? Just thinking out loud here...

I watched that Carter video but I have never seen anyone actually sharpening kitchen knives with that sweeping motion
 
Any sharpening at lower angle than the very edge is thinning.
Removing a shoulder is thinning, but go on, until you reach the very edge and raise a burr on the opposite side. Or establish the final edge little before.
Verify the scratch pattern or use the marker trick to see how far you have come.
When thinning you use some finger pressure on the opposite side.
When you're concerned about the blade's appearance, don't. It will take much longer, you won't get a nicely convexed bevel, but you still may remove a lot of steel and improve performance. In that case keep your flat stone free from any mud.
 
Any recommendations for youtubers that cover the thining well?
 
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Sorry for the first post noob questions. Thinning seems daunting and confusing to me. I've got a typical Henckels (yeah, yeah, I'm working on it) beastly thick chef knife, and I'm wondering when it can be thinned. How often does one thin? Each time they sharpen? Do you thin the whole knife, or just add an increased secondary bevel so it's thinner behind the edge and leave the rest of the knife face alone? When does it "feel" like it's time to thin? Can you thin softer western steels or will their integrity be compromised? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks!
99% of the time I thin behind the edge every time the height of the knife reduces from sharpening the edge the knife becomes thicker - if a knife is to cut deep then it needs a fine entry big shoulders wedge destroy the food & flavor .many knives are finished on big wheels so there are often hollows in the blade so these will go over consecutive thinning .
Initially the finish is not great unless you have hours to spend but over time the finish can be better than new once the hollows are gone then the thinning is easy since it is just maintaining it like the edge.
Western knives do not need such a wide thinning bevel so a thinning bevel of 2-3mm wide seems good on a Wūstof .
Overall you are trying to maintain or improve the thickness out of the box this is why I hate having to sharpen knives which have seen heavy steel use since this opens up all sorts of issues - tips -heels-hollows -scratches-thickening-it’s not uncommon to see Shuns where the hagane is almost invisible due to the thickness of the blade.
 
You may use the long side of the stone when thinning. Reduces scratches to the lower part of the face. Very simple but most useful trick I got here.
 
A few figures I tend to aim for: 0.2mm thickness behind the edge, 0.5 at 5mm up to the spine, 1mm at 10mm. For general purpose chef's, not for lasers.
You can easily get an idea by locking the micrometer at 0.5/1mm and see where along the blade it glides through it. Start at the tip.
 
You may use the long side of the stone when thinning. Reduces scratches to the lower part of the face. Very simple but most useful trick I got here.

Good tip! You can also tape the part that you do not want to thin.

How do you make the stone stand on the side while thinning using the method you suggested?
 
A few figures I tend to aim for: 0.2mm thickness behind the edge, 0.5 at 5mm up to the spine, 1mm at 10mm. For general purpose chef's, not for lasers.
You can easily get an idea by locking the micrometer at 0.5/1mm and see where along the blade it glides through it. Start at the tip.

I really appreciated it when you shared these figures in a thread of mine a while ago. Makes a real difference having a metric benchmark to aim for when you’re starting out, rather than having you rely on a “feel” that you haven’t developed enough to be completely confident in.
 
I really appreciated it when you shared these figures in a thread of mine a while ago. Makes a real difference having a metric benchmark to aim for when you’re starting out, rather than having you rely on a “feel” that you haven’t developed enough to be completely confident in.
Thanks!
 
Sorry for the first post noob questions. Thinning seems daunting and confusing to me. I've got a typical Henckels (yeah, yeah, I'm working on it) beastly thick chef knife, and I'm wondering when it can be thinned. How often does one thin? Each time they sharpen? Do you thin the whole knife, or just add an increased secondary bevel so it's thinner behind the edge and leave the rest of the knife face alone? When does it "feel" like it's time to thin? Can you thin softer western steels or will their integrity be compromised? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks!

I thin all my knives when new. i basically flatten the sides when new. since these are always concave. other than that i have so many knives I kinda doubt i will ever need to thin any one of them ever again in my entire life.
 
How many passes on a 400 grit would suffice for proper thinning (lets say for an Ashi 180mm wa-petty)? As a noob, its difficult for me to look at the geometry of a blade and know what I’m seeing.

Any advice as to actually being able to see thinning progress would help.

Watching Jon’s videos, he said “Go slow. You can take metal off, but can’t put metal back on”. Makes it intimidating haha. So I want to learn to thin properly without ruining my knives.

Thanks
 
Go slow. You can take metal off, but can’t put metal back on
This is true, but keep in mind that thinning by hand is an inherently slow process - it's not like you're removing loads of metal with each pass on the stone.
Read 'go slow' as moving deliberately and accurately, rather than counting each pass through fear of grinding a large chunk off your knife.
How many passes on a 400 grit would suffice for proper thinning (lets say for an Ashi 180mm wa-petty)?
How long is a piece of string? :p
 
How to 'see' thinning with eyes and fingertips

(1) The easiest way to see thinning is to thin at the heel, where you can see the choil. See where the knife gets thinner, or the curve changes shape. Then try to repeat what you did along the rest of the blade. This is how I started out.

The ashi ginga has a very consistent convex grind, so this should be representative of how it will likely cut. Sometimes, the choil is actually very very slightly thinner than the cross section of the knife right after the choil. This is pretty common in knives I've bought, due to how they are made. Also there may be very very tiny 'overgrinds' that are slight concavities. This again, is common and can come out with thinning. And of course, the choil could not very well describe how the knife may be like towards the tip. The choil also does not describe the grind of the part above the choil, the blade face, which does play a role in food release, but next in line compared to near the edge, and the middle of the blade.

(2) I also check with my fingertips move from spine to edge. This tells me how smoothly the knife will go through the cut, because this is how smooth the grind is. A sudden jump can be good for food release, but by far for non-wide bevel knives like the Ginga, I like the smoother cut. When you do this, you can wet the blade a little if it helps, to help your fingers glide.

(3) I check the thickness at the same distance from the edge along the entire length of the blade. I repeat for each distance from the edge. This is most critical right above the edge, which is the thinness that determines how easily the knife sinks (sometimes viciously) into food. Note that distal taper also comes into play, and the edges near the tip are often thinner than near the heel. This isn't necessary, it's just a built in feature because some people like thin tips to go through dense things that thicker tips get stuck in, and people like a little thicker heels for food release and a confident feel when bashing there.

(4) The hardest is to check the blade in light to see the contouring of the knife. This is hard because the blade will have the thinning marks, which makes things difficult. Training the eye to 'see' curves takes a while. What I can say is that convex will bend an image one way and concave will bend it another way.

How many passes for a ginga on a 400?

I guess start with 10 swipes (back and forth = 1) on each side, right behind the edge. Then resharpen as normal on a higher grit stone. Cut, and repeat for more "performance", or less resistance going through food. If the surface finish is kinda grabby, you can polish that out with a higher grit stone, sandpaper, bar keeper's friend, or metal polish (though this doesn't help much with deep scratches).

"Proper" is up to how little resistance you like, and how confident feeling you want the knife. Or if the edge bends or chips or crumbles. I do have a ginga as well, and I've found an optimum edge thinness, and more than that the edge starts to bend a bit after going through certain foods. I could try again, though, or thin higher up the blade.
 
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