i still love my German knives.

[HappyamateurDK]

How do you like the Böker one?

It's a lot of knife for the money. It's a bit thick behind the edge out of the box. But a good thinning raise it's performance to level way more expensive knives. The steel is very easy to sharpen, and still stay sharp decently long. It seems a bit courser grained then for instance my windmühlen messer. But you can also buy 4 of them for the same price

 

[Benuser]

I liked about the Böker the traditional geometry — basically the same as with the Herders and Sabs. Right side evenly convex over the entire face for good food release, left side flatter except for the lowest, curved part where the face has to join the edge. Major improvement can be achieved without changing it dramatically. As one once said here: it's all about the first half centimetre. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. With my sharpening I tend to little by little move the edge a bit to the left. With thinning the right side right behind the edge I almost make disappear the bevel, and aim for one continuous arc formed by face and edge. I only can do so as a right-hander and only user.

 

[calostro5]

It's a lot of knife for the money. It's a bit thick behind the edge out of the box. But a good thinning raise it's performance to level way more expensive knives. The steel is very easy to sharpen, and still stay sharp decently long. It seems a bit courser grained then for instance my windmühlen messer. But you can also buy 4 of them for the same price

I have this knife, but I have used it few times because of the thickness, specially behind the edge as you said.
I should thin it, but I don't have much experience and it is necessary to remove much steel.
Benuser recommended me to do it.

I liked about the Böker the traditional geometry — basically the same as with the Herders and Sabs. Right side evenly convex over the entire face for good food release, left side flatter except for the lowest, curved part where the face has to join the edge. Major improvement can be achieved without changing it dramatically. As one once said here: it's all about the first half centimetre. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. With my sharpening I tend to little by little move the edge a bit to the left. With thinning the right side right behind the edge I almost make disappear the bevel, and aim for one continuous arc formed by face and edge. I only can do so as a right-hander and only user.

I have looked the knife again. I thought both sides was flat, but I seen you are right; the right side is convex and the left side is flatter. This effect is less remarkable than japanese knives, but anyway good for right handed. As left handed, I should do the opposite than you are doing, as you told me time ago.

 

[coxhaus]

I have evolved in my sharpening of my Wusthof Classic knives and Henckel 4-star knives. Once I have them sharpen at 15 degrees on my Ken Onion Worksharp and they dull I seem to be able to sharpen them using a leather belt on my Worksharp now without having to go back to sanding belts. I leave the belt a little loose, so I end up with a convex edge. I don't know how long it will last as it is new for me but so far it seems to work. I am using green compound of the leather belt.

 

[Benuser]

As left handed, I should do the opposite than you are doing, as you told me time ago.

That did apply to one specific situation. No, you shouldn't in general do the opposite from what I do. First see if steering occurs.

 

[calostro5]

That did apply to one specific situation. No, you shouldn't in general do the opposite from what I do. First see if steering occurs.

I think I have not used this knife since I bought the Kanetsune, so I don't know if it steering occurs, but I don't remember any problem when I used it.
Anyway, I must smooth the transition between the bezel and the rest of the blade.

 

[Benuser]

Easing or removing the shoulders is very simple. If you feel unsure about the angle first try with your finest stone.

 

[calostro5]

Easing or removing the shoulders is very simple. If you feel unsure about the angle first try with your finest stone.

I am always unsure when I put my knives on the stone lol.
I have to try it, the knife is not expensive.

 

[Benuser]

I am always unsure when I put my knives on the stone lol.
I have to try it, the knife is not expensive.

Come on, the Kanetsune with its right-biased chisel grind was a much heavier operation! I remember having removed shoulders from my first Misono 35 years ago with a few strokes of a Chosera 2k. It was the first time I did it, and was surprised about it being that easy.

 

[calostro5]

Come on, the Kanetsune with its right-biased chisel grind was a much heavier operation! I remember having removed shoulders from my first Misono 35 years ago with a few strokes of a Chosera 2k. It was the first time I did it, and was surprised about it being that easy.

I will show the result when I do it. But certainly the operation on the Kanetsune was a little heavy.

 

[Benuser]

I thought both sides was flat, but I seen you are right; the right side is convex and the left side is flatter. This effect is less remarkable than japanese knives, but anyway good for right handed.

Both sides being each other's mirror image would cause terrible wedging. And a flat side doesn't help with food release: produce will stick on it.

 

[calostro5]

Both sides being each other's mirror image would cause terrible wedging. And a flat side doesn't help with food release: produce will stick on it.

I know, you told me it before. Moreover I have experienced it using my Kanetsune after thinning.

 

[mgardiner]

By the way: when speaking about German knives the name of Gustav Emil Ern can't be missed. According to people who know their stuff, probably the best factory knives ever produced in Germany, until their bankruptcy in the 1970's. The name has been sold and been used since for very average products. So take care!
How excellent they might have been, somewhere end 1920's they distinguished their blades with the inscription in Sütterlin — tradional handwriting — of 'Germanenmesser', Germanics' knife. The timing was no coincidence.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/how-do-i-identify-vintage-gustav-emil-ern.26865/

My wife inherited a 30s (if I recall correctly) Gustav Emil Ern from her mother. I had it rehandled a few years back. Great knife!

 

[Choppin]

My wife inherited a 30s (if I recall correctly) Gustav Emil Ern from her mother. I had it rehandled a few years back. Great knife!

we need pics! love those old Gustav’s

 

[rickbern]

I’ve had a wustoff 10” French style chef’s knife for about thirty years, great beater, it’s not going anywhere. When I switched over to Japanese knives the word I consistently used was “nimble” to describe what I was looking for. My most loved knives are undersized, lighter 240 gyutos like the gengetsu or wakui. Even the wakui is a little bit big.

I recently bought a mizuno ks clone to think outside the box a little and it felt gigantic. Just experimenting, I laid it on top of my wustie to see what it would look like. Little more belly for sure, but they sure seem like kissing cousins

Starting to get used to the mizuno, I’m still pondering. Helluva lot more fun to sharpen than the wusthoff, that’s for sure!

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I liked about the Böker the traditional geometry — basically the same as with the Herders and Sabs. Right side evenly convex over the entire face for good food release, left side flatter except for the lowest, curved part where the face has to join the edge. Major improvement can be achieved without changing it dramatically. As one once said here: it's all about the first half centimetre. A bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. With my sharpening I tend to little by little move the edge a bit to the left. With thinning the right side right behind the edge I almost make disappear the bevel, and aim for one continuous arc formed by face and edge. I only can do so as a right-hander and only user.

You wouldn't happen to know other European makers of western style carbon steel knives? I've become pretty happy with the ones I got. It would be cool if there was others then the usual Herder's sabs and Bökers.

 

[coxhaus]

I’ve had a wustoff 10” French style chef’s knife for about thirty years, great beater, it’s not going anywhere. When I switched over to Japanese knives the word I consistently used was “nimble” to describe what I was looking for. My most loved knives are undersized, lighter 240 gyutos like the gengetsu or wakui. Even the wakui is a little bit big.

I recently bought a mizuno ks clone to think outside the box a little and it felt gigantic. Just experimenting, I laid it on top of my wustie to see what it would look like. Little more belly for sure, but they sure seem like kissing cousins

Starting to get used to the mizuno, I’m still pondering. Helluva lot more fun to sharpen than the wusthoff, that’s for sure!
View attachment 259715View attachment 259716

It looks like you are getting an upturn in your Wusthof knife in the back. Are you using a steel on it. It could just be the camera angle.

 

[Benuser]

You wouldn't happen to know other European makers of western style carbon steel knives? I've become pretty happy with the ones I got. It would be cool if there was others then the usual Herder's sabs and Bökers.

Not that I'm aware of. It's clearly a niche market. Prendergast seems not to make chef's knives any longer, but these are customs. Otherwise the closest to the original Sab profile and geometry is the Misono, but they aren't as thin behind the edge as they used to be. Nothing dramatic though you can't easily fix yourself.
I must humbly admit that I never handled an American kitchen knife. So I don't know if they do follow the typical Sab geometry — right face evenly convex over the entire side, left one flat except for the last 1.5 centimetre or so where it has to join the edge.
Interesting might be the Pallarès Solsona, but their profile is far from traditional with an upswing at the heel. Well treated C60 steel at 60Rc. Good grinding, poor edge, far to fat behind the edge, with careless home users in mind. The relatively light 16cm costs some €20, the 23cm €40 IIRC.

 

[Jovidah]

After many, many hours in a professional kitchen (Western) I have gravitated more and more to Western knives even though I started out with a knife bag that was all Japanese. I really do think that the intimate connection between knives and the culinary traditions they are born and reside in is substantial enough that, for me at least, there's minimal utility to be had by knives crossing over from one domain to the other, even with the more Western shapes of JKnives (Gyutos and the like). My appreciation of the softer stainless used in the West has also risen.

Germany has no culinary tradition. It has food.
Also I don't .... really agree. Especially when you consider that present-day German knives (or how we see them; the Zwilling / Wusthof kitchen axes) aren't necessarily similar to how they used to be; a lot thinner behind the edge... like you still see with present day Robert Herder knives. And I think there's a lot to be said for continuously improving products as better materials become available (this applies to both the eternal usage of X50 in Germany and most artisan knives still being made in Hitachi white/blue etc). Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it can't be improved upon.

 

[banzai_burrito]

Besides my Nogent, this is my other squash knife

Friedr Herder

Didn't take before pics, it was plain nasty. Gunk and verdigris everywhere. Cleaned it some, oiled up the handle, and it's time for butternut squash.

 

[calostro5]

Not that I'm aware of. It's clearly a niche market. Prendergast seems not to make chef's knives any longer, but these are customs. Otherwise the closest to the original Sab profile and geometry is the Misono, but they aren't as thin behind the edge as they used to be. Nothing dramatic though you can't easily fix yourself.
I must humbly admit that I never handled an American kitchen knife. So I don't know if they do follow the typical Sab geometry — right face evenly convex over the entire side, left one flat except for the last 1.5 centimetre or so where it has to join the edge.
Interesting might be the Pallarès Solsona, but their profile is far from traditional with an upswing at the heel. Well treated C60 steel at 60Rc. Good grinding, poor edge, far to fat behind the edge, with careless home users in mind. The relatively light 16cm costs some €20, the 23cm €40 IIRC.

I agree with you about pallarès solsona.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Not that I'm aware of. It's clearly a niche market. Prendergast seems not to make chef's knives any longer, but these are customs. Otherwise the closest to the original Sab profile and geometry is the Misono, but they aren't as thin behind the edge as they used to be. Nothing dramatic though you can't easily fix yourself.
I must humbly admit that I never handled an American kitchen knife. So I don't know if they do follow the typical Sab geometry — right face evenly convex over the entire side, left one flat except for the last 1.5 centimetre or so where it has to join the edge.
Interesting might be the Pallarès Solsona, but their profile is far from traditional with an upswing at the heel. Well treated C60 steel at 60Rc. Good grinding, poor edge, far to fat behind the edge, with careless home users in mind. The relatively light 16cm costs some €20, the 23cm €40 IIRC.

Couldn't a Suisin high carbon in SK steel also fall in under that category?

 

[Benuser]

Never handled one, sorry. In fact, all gyutos have the Sab as an original, with a few adaptations though: the edge moved more or less to the left for better food release — easy if you can ignore left-handers; most of them with a typical lower tip — so it can be used by short people as well, and is less vulnerable.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Never handled one, sorry. In fact, all gyutos have the Sab as an original, with a few adaptations though: the edge moved more or less to the left for better food release — easy if you can ignore left-handers; most of them with a typical lower tip — so it can be used by short people as well, and is less vulnerable.

I own one and really like it. It's a lot of knife for the money.

Talking about Sabs. Do you know if the heat treatment on the K Sabatier carbon knives are still a lottery ticket. Or has it become better?

 

[Benuser]

I own one and really like it. It's a lot of knife for the money.

Talking about Sabs. Do you know if the heat treatment on the K Sabatier carbon knives are still a lottery ticket. Or has it become better?

Have no recent experience with new carbon K-Sabs, I'm afraid. Had some good surprises with their NOS.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Have no recent experience with new carbon K-Sabs, I'm afraid. Had some good surprises with their NOS.

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is there NOS?

 

[banzai_burrito]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is there NOS?

NOS = new old stock

 

[Benuser]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what is there NOS?

New Old Stock. Think about the 50-years old Minamotos Minamoto no Masakane Gyuto 270mm wide
With the K-Sabatier the story is a bit different. They had huge stocks of Nogent carbon blades they put a handle on — no ebony but birch — and an aluminium virole. Stocks from other makers who went in bankruptcy in the '29-crisis, own stocks from the 50s.
And some full-tang carbons meant for export, as the so-called Canadians, with only a narrow fingerguard. There's not much left with K-Sabatier itself, I'm afraid.
Bernal in California still has some.
https://bernalcutlery.com/collectio...age-nogent-cuisine-massive-3-75-paring-carbonThe French Nogent are very light and have a strong forward balance. The original ebony handles were bored down the center with a large diameter hole, leaving just a thin web of wood on the sides. They look solid, but they're not. Very light. German handles from the same time are often in massive rosewood with a neutral balance. The modern massive beech ones are very light as well and don't disturb the traditional forward balance.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

New Old Stock. Think about the 50-years old Minamotos Minamoto no Masakane Gyuto 270mm wide
With the K-Sabatier the story is a bit different. They had huge stocks of Nogent carbon blades they put a handle on — no ebony but birch — and an aluminium virole. Stocks from other makers who went in bankruptcy in the '29-crisis, own stocks from the 50s.
And some full-tang carbons meant for export, as the so-called Canadians, with only a narrow fingerguard. There's not much left with K-Sabatier itself, I'm afraid.
Bernal in California still has some.
https://bernalcutlery.com/collectio...age-nogent-cuisine-massive-3-75-paring-carbonThe French Nogent are very light and have a strong forward balance. The original ebony handles were bored down the center with a large diameter hole, leaving just a thin web of wood on the sides. They look solid, but they're not. Very light. German handles from the same time are often in massive rosewood with a neutral balance. The modern massive beech ones are very light as well and don't disturb the traditional forward balance.

Those are really beautiful, and I would really like to own one. Unfortunately they are really hard to find here.

Looks like Japanese makers are still the best bid.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

New Old Stock. Think about the 50-years old Minamotos Minamoto no Masakane Gyuto 270mm wide
With the K-Sabatier the story is a bit different. They had huge stocks of Nogent carbon blades they put a handle on — no ebony but birch — and an aluminium virole. Stocks from other makers who went in bankruptcy in the '29-crisis, own stocks from the 50s.
And some full-tang carbons meant for export, as the so-called Canadians, with only a narrow fingerguard. There's not much left with K-Sabatier itself, I'm afraid.
Bernal in California still has some.
https://bernalcutlery.com/collectio...age-nogent-cuisine-massive-3-75-paring-carbonThe French Nogent are very light and have a strong forward balance. The original ebony handles were bored down the center with a large diameter hole, leaving just a thin web of wood on the sides. They look solid, but they're not. Very light. German handles from the same time are often in massive rosewood with a neutral balance. The modern massive beech ones are very light as well and don't disturb the traditional forward balance.

Talking about Japanese "western style" carbon.

You wouldn't happen to know about the Kogetsu western handle carbon knives. Are they any good?

And what about the SK steel they use. Are SK carbon an okay steel?

Thanks