J-Nat Club

[Andrey V]

Okay, too many fantastic stone photos around here from Andrey Awasedo, and so I thought I should put one of my own up. Here goes...

The challenge: guess the stone if you can.... It's a medium natural and fine enough to finish knives, I would say. It's an important stone going back in time but is quite rare, and not well known here if at all, meaning that I'm very lucky to have it. The source mine has been closed for decades. This particular one is huge too.

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He he
It's definitely a lighter!! Bingo!!
Reg the small stone in the background of the photo- the black dots & yellowish parts look like Natsuya, but i'm not sure. It's not Awasedo.. 😎😎😜✌️

 

[Asteger]

He he It's definitely a lighter!! Bingo!! Reg the small stone in the background of the photo- the black dots & yellowish parts look like Natsuya, but i'm not sure. It's not Awasedo.. ������✌️

Hohoho, thanks for the answer, AV. :razz:
But no, no ... Well, ... yes. That is a lighter (purple, Made in China, and not Honyama at all). However, Natsuya ... no, not close, aside from in a general sense geographically as these were mined in N. Honshu. Natsuya, for their part are on the coarse end of medium nakato, and this one isn't; it could follow a Natsuya as the 3rd stone in a progression which started with a coarse arato. The appearance of Natsuya ranges from deep orange to buttery yellow. (Isn't yours on the yellow end?) The stone in my photo is basically a blue stone, with some orange and red renge (not black dots). Very cool in person. Oh, and don't call my stone small. This one is nearly 10cm wide and 3kg!

 

[Asteger]

... About Natsuya, in case you or others haven't seen it, here's the best photo out there, showing 3 general types. The lighter ones can be light orange like here or even, as I said, buttery, and these tend to be the toratogi (striped). Another type has white spots. Another is fairly uniform. I've got one that's both striped and spotted, another that's marbled and deep orange, and another that's uniform. Photo:

 

[Andrey V]

Hohoho, thanks for the answer, AV. :razz:
But no, no ... Well, ... yes. That is a lighter (purple, Made in China, and not Honyama at all). However, Natsuya ... no, not close, aside from in a general sense geographically as these were mined in N. Honshu. Natsuya, for their part are on the coarse end of medium nakato, and this one isn't; it could follow a Natsuya as the 3rd stone in a progression which started with a coarse arato. The appearance of Natsuya ranges from deep orange to buttery yellow. (Isn't yours on the yellow end?) The stone in my photo is basically a blue stone, with some orange and red renge (not black dots). Very cool in person. Oh, and don't call my stone small. This one is nearly 10cm wide and 3kg!

I bet your pardon, but considering a huge lighter as a star posing on a " small" stone in a background..😎😎😎😎😜😜😜😜✌️✌️
I agree, I wouldn't consider it to be Honyama lighter!
Nice blue -grayish brick indeed👍👍 i told Natsuya just to start the discussion. Never saw such one. Looks promising

 

[Andrey V]

And tell us, Asteger, what's this.
Do you use it to press the choucrout/Sauerkraut??

 

[Asteger]

Andrey, since you're interested I might have 1 or 2 nakayama kiita lighters for you. As for my 'nice brick' I will wait. I don't think so, but maybe I'll get 1 or 2 more guesses.

 

[Andrey V]

BTW-Merry Christmas, guys!!! 🎄🎄🎄🎄🎉🎉🍷🍷🎁🎁⛄️

 

[Andrey V]

Andrey, since you're interested I might have 1 or 2 nakayama kiita lighters for you. As for my 'nice brick' I will wait. I don't think so, but maybe I'll get 1 or 2 more guesses.

Okay
Let's wait. Intriguing ..👀👀👀

 

[vinster]

Okay, too many fantastic stone photos around here from Andrey Awasedo, and so I thought I should put one of my own up. Here goes...

The challenge: guess the stone if you can.... It's a medium natural and fine enough to finish knives, I would say. It's an important stone going back in time but is quite rare, and not well known here if at all, meaning that I'm very lucky to have it. The source mine has been closed for decades. This particular one is huge too.

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Aizu?!??! I generally don't like stones with holes as in the surface of that stone.... which was one of my knocks on the binsui, amakusa, and natsuya.

 

[designdog]

Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose:

Hakka
Hideriyama
Ozuku.

You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection!

Thanks...

 

[dream816]

In my case, Takishima is my pre-polisher and I have hakka and hideriyama as the next progression stones but no Ozuku. It turns out that my hideriyama provides a finer finish than my hakka. So in my case, I will finish my knife with the hideriyama. Nice hazy and consistent finish.

so I think it really depends on the specific stones you have.

 

[designdog]

So, could you go from Takishima to Hideriyama, without the Hakka? I can't get both!

Thanks...

 

[Asteger]

Okay Let's wait. Intriguing ..������

Aizu?!??!

Nope. 2nd guess, but much closer than the first....

It's a Kaisei, which has also been called Kazama. I think they came in blue or red, and this one combines the both.

I thought this one would be good for guessing as 'kaisei' seems well-known enough, or should be, as the 3rd stone in the sword progression. Also, there are a limited number of blue stones out there, and this is one of the few (along with Aizu & Ikarashi, though I suspect other ultra-obscure ones exist too).

Quality is great, which is what I heard about Kaisei before, and so far it's probably going to be my fav of the other blues. Kaisei/Kazama should follow the arato and binsui in the progression, and I've read that Aizu was considered its substitute and, if not, then Ikarashi.

I generally don't like stones with holes as in the surface of that stone.... which was one of my knocks on the binsui, amakusa, and natsuya.

'Binsui' usually are white Amakusa, and so no surprise that they can be 'holey' just like the red or 'toratogi' striped versions of Amakusa. I think you're mistaken on Natsuya, though. Maybe thinking of Amakusa? I've never seen any with holes, and I've handled a few myself. At any rate, looks-wise holes aren't desirable, but depending on the stone I think they can be a non-issue and not effect sharpening. Problem of course is if pieces snap off and harder bits scratch during sharpening, which you wouldn't want.

 

[Asteger]

Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose: Hakka, Hideriyama, Ozuku. You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection! Thanks...

Well, usual Hakka are pretty similar to usual Takashima, and so I'd say if you've already used the Takashima then skip the Hakka. (I sold my Hakkas and kept a Takashima.) As for Hideriyama, if it's a tomae then it's going to be similar to Hakka and Takashima - on the softer side, muddy - except that Hideriyama are kind of known for having harder silicon bits that def can give you some teeth on your blade but will not leave a uniform finish. (It'll probably end up scratchy, as from a coarser stone, but also inconsistent unless you really control it.) For me, I'd avoid the Hideriyama. (You sometimes also see Hideriyama suita around, and there are other types of Hakka and Takashima; you haven't said which types you have.)

As for Ozuku, these should be significantly harder. However, if you've already used a Yaginoshima - which should be similarly hard and fine, and have similar uses to Ozuku (good for razors for eg; I've got one like this) - then I'd say you don't need an Ozuku either.

So my vote... For the 1-bevel, often people finish at lower coarseness than Takashima already and so would I but, if forced, of those 3 I'd do Hakka but not because it's needed. For 2-bevel, to me a Yaginoshima is already too fine - it's a knife, not a razor right? - and might have a scuffy finish after using it because it's hard, so I'd drop down to the somewhat coarser Hakka again to even out the finish and to leave a less polished edge.

 

[designdog]

Good input! I seem to want to keep sharpening up the grit ladder. I also have a very nice Nakayama Suita that I have used after the Takashima. I just felt that a Hakka would be a good stone to end with, without the uber polish of Nakayama, Okudo, Ohira...

 

[designdog]

Oh, the Takashima is a Suita...

 

[Asteger]

Oh, the Takashima is a Suita...

Still, some suita are finer and some really aren't that fine at all. I don't know with Takashima. The tomae Takashima are the ones most people have, and me too. So hard to say.

Anyway, if I respond to this, my taste is not to go too fine unless you want to polish and make things look pretty, but to have a less practical and fairly temporary edge as the result. Grit-wise, I'm happy up to half of 10k, or less. So my response reflects this.

You can see if someone like Andrey Awasedo or Vinster chimes in. They're both fine finisher nuts.

You didn't mention that you were buying. So, in that case, I'd say you should play it safe and avoid Hideriyama, although they would def be on the inexpensive end compared to the other two, and some people seem to like them. With Ozuku, they can get expensive, and there are other hard/fine finisher options (and you already have the Yaginoshima, which should be similar, if not from as prestigious a mine). Hakka are nice, but I think some are just okay and others good, and at around $500+ if you buy from JNS (with Hakka, I don't know of another source) they're too expensive I think. Why only these 3? Keep your options open.

 

[vinster]

Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose:

Hakka
Hideriyama
Ozuku.

You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection!

Thanks...

As others have suggested, it's really impossible to make a recommendation based on the mine name alone. How do you define equal "quality"? in fineness? hardness? speed of cutting? purity (lack of lines/inclusions/etc)? I've tried samples from each of the three listed mines and have experienced a spectrum of different behaving stones. Best would be to try to out for yourself, otherwise lean on the feedback from someone you know and trust.

Generally speaking, most stones from ozuku are quite fine and hard. There are occasional softer ones, but I don't find ozuku to be particularly fast cutting, which is among my preferred traits.

All of the Hakka I've tried are on the soft and muddy side. Some have been faster cutting than others. They aren't super fine, but leave a nice even polish. I'd say similar to takashima, with the takashima stones I've tried being a bit more coarse.

Hideriyama is sort of similar to hakka and takashima. Most are on the soft and muddy side, but I've used some that are harder and finer (suita).

If I could only pick one, I'd go with the hakka. I have a love affair with the hakka. They are pricey, but I've yet to find a compelling substitute.

On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.

 

[Andrey V]

As others have suggested, it's really impossible to make a recommendation based on the mine name alone. How do you define equal "quality"? in fineness? hardness? speed of cutting? purity (lack of lines/inclusions/etc)? I've tried samples from each of the three listed mines and have experienced a spectrum of different behaving stones. Best would be to try to out for yourself, otherwise lean on the feedback from someone you know and trust.

Generally speaking, most stones from ozuku are quite fine and hard. There are occasional softer ones, but I don't find ozuku to be particularly fast cutting, which is among my preferred traits.

All of the Hakka I've tried are on the soft and muddy side. Some have been faster cutting than others. They aren't super fine, but leave a nice even polish. I'd say similar to takashima, with the takashima stones I've tried being a bit more coarse.

Hideriyama is sort of similar to hakka and takashima. Most are on the soft and muddy side, but I've used some that are harder and finer (suita).

If I could only pick one, I'd go with the hakka. I have a love affair with the hakka. They are pricey, but I've yet to find a compelling substitute.

On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.

Let me add my two cents, guys .
Agree with vinster. Almost
It's too hard to say something just using the mountain / quarry name.
F.ex i have a wonderful Yaginoshima Suita, it's very good for ss-steels, and it is fine&hard. Much better then any Takashima i tried. It can be the next stone after Takashima or Hakka.
But- I don't like Hakka at all- it means that everyone can have it's own preferences. To me a good Takashima ( agree with Asteger, they are mostly from Tomae layer) is even better/ similar in action. Anyway- i'm not a fan wether of Hakka, nor Takashima. Though my rare extra fine/hard Hakka Karasu is something... As all the other boys I wouldn't discuss Hideriyama unless you tried one and it seemed to be a star. The reason why has been well described here already.
Ozuku: well, a mine tends to be known for harder finer stones used mostly to finish the razors rather then knives. I tried many, inkl rare Ozuku Suitas. Just not my stones: Okudo gives hard but better stones, there are many cheaper alternatives like Wakasa etc. So I personally don't see any reason why.
There are really so many alternatives in great finishers.. Why to limit yourself??
Agree with Vinster reg red Shobu Tomae- i have 1 full brick- it's amazing, really good. And still quite affordable!
So good luck on this field 👍👍!

 

[designdog]

Sounds like a consensus with red shobu tomae. Where to get one?

Oh, and Merry Christmas, all!

 

[Andrey V]

Takeshi, Aframes
He has some great Shobu from time to time

 

[designdog]

Thanks, Andrey. I had already sent Takeshita an email — just missed out on a Shige from him some days ago...

 

[Asteger]

On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.

Agree with Vinster reg red Shobu Tomae- i have 1 full brick- it's amazing, really good. And still quite affordable!

I like these too, and have a couple.

Just a note that these aren't necessarily red and aren't called that, except maybe by us. 'Aka' is red. Iromono Shobu are usually a mix of colours, from dark brown to reddish-brownish, even almost purplish, to olive green and softer kiita. 'Iromono' means they're colourful, but not necessarily red.

... Just checked Aframes and he has a nice-looking big one with the price to match, and a few small or oddly shaped. His initial 2 pictures of the big one are quite dark and this makes it look redder (must sell better like this) but if you scroll and check the other shots the colours are a bit more conventional, though it's still a nice looking specimen. As usual, the overall general colour you get with most finishers and esp with tomae is a kind of brown.

 

[designdog]

Thanks, Andrey. I won't be buying anything over $400, though that one looks nice.

This is what is confusing: there are probably 10 other Shobu stones on his site. How to know what is what?

 

[Andrey V]

Thanks, Andrey. I won't be buying anything over $400, though that one looks nice.

This is what is confusing: there are probably 10 other Shobu stones on his site. How to know what is what?

Check Aframes asap- Takeshi has a bunch of new stones, very interesting Yaginoshima Suitas, btw!
And a cheap ( under 400$) Nakayama Kiita.
Reg other Shobu Iromono- we call it red, but they aren't red, sure. Reddish, a mix of brown , reddish, yellowish etc.

 

[CoqaVin]

what grit around is the shobu iromono, I have a regualar shobu but it is hard as heck, and better suited for razors

 

[Andrey V]

what grit around is the shobu iromono, I have a regualar shobu but it is hard as heck, and better suited for razors

Mine is ca 3,5 lv( if to use the range of 5 points).
Suites the knives. Very good indeed . Grit.. Ca 7000. If to sharpen just with the weight of the knife-higher
You mean maybe Shobudani razor type- it's really hard and is suitable only for razors

 

[designdog]

So, this is the one I just bought

Shobu Iromono Natural Whetstone 1076g (2Lb.6.0oz. )

206mmX50mmX41mm for final sharpening for razor or very fine grit sharpening for high carbon steel blade I have got this Shobu from one of the whetstone company in Kyoto.

The company used to mine Shobu (it was one of them, I think that Shobu had been mined by more than one company. There were more than one ore port owned by more than one company) and the other name mines.

Shoubu-dani is the original mine to yield high quality Japanese sword sharpening whetstone in Kyoto, and the mine run out the production of the ore, and moved to the other mines, so Shobu-dani used to have really great final finish whetstones.

It is moderate hardness in fine grit whetstone (not too hard and not too soft), and it produces very good amount of black slurry quickly. It has very gently touch, when I sharpen the blade, and I felt little elasticity from the sharpening surface, so it is easy to work with. It should be good enough amount of slurry, so it does not need Tomo Nagura or a device that produces slurry.

Hardness--------- 8.7

(Scale; 1 to 10, 1-3 is very soft muddy rough grit whetstone 3-6 is soft medium grit whetstone, 6-8 is hard medium grit whetstone; 8-10 is fine grit whetstone)

Particle Size-------------- 8.9

(Scale; 1 to 10, 1-3 give deep scratch marks to the steel, 3-5 is delete the 1-3 scratches, 5-8 makes the steel cloudy, 8-10 makes the steel semi-mirror finish or mirror finish)

 

[Asteger]

Thanks, Andrey.

Welcome, though I think you're confusing me with someone else. Andrey's the one with the Russian accent. :groucho:

So, this is the one I just bought Shobu Iromono Natural Whetstone 1076g (2Lb.6.0oz. ) ...

The weight is okay and other ratings pretty normal, so sounds like it should be a good one. Enjoy

 

[chinacats]

Just starting to get used to my new naturals and have to say that this seems almost like cheating. I've not used them to thin or clean up from thinning yet, but for sharpening my mind has been blown. It's insanely easy to raise a burr and even more insane how easy it is to get rid of one--am I missing something here (meaning why would anyone use anything else)? :biggrin:

BTW, using fairly inexpensive stones at that--Binsui and Takashima both from Maxim.