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@labor of love, please let us know, after sharpening and some use, how R2/SG2 works for you. Have read very different observations from all very serious members, especially about edge stability.
Jck Kagayaki r2 series
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dafox
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Thank you, is that a 210?
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It’s funny, some people say it sharpens easy, while others disagree. I guess it’s relative to what R2 knives are being compared too.
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Yeah, infact I just received a takamura red handle 180mm gyuto, I can do comparison pics w Takamura PRO 150mm petty when it arrives on Monday.
I expect them to be very different. MTC kitchen explains the difference on their website.
HRC_64
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Thanks for posting this info
...it seems like a good taper? Some other people were remarking about the board-feel of r2 not being all that great in the laser profiles, I'd be curious to hear about in the more mid-weight grinds (once ya'll get a chance to use them more). Also, any chance if to get a profile shot would also be great...
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Yeah in general feedback about takamura usually is with regards to the red handled line which seem to be lasers. I expect the pro and uchi to be quite thicker blades with more detailed grinds and taper.
How does this board define laser?
* No thicker than 2.5mm at spine above heel
* No thicker than 0.8mm 1cm above edge at the heel.
That could be a good start.
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Right, well we refer to konosuke mono, ginga, sakai Yusuke as lasers. They have thin spines, thin blades, thin edges. Usually other knifes may only have thin edges, or thin blades and thin edges.
But takamura red handle does have a thin spine, blade and edge.
HRC_64
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IMHO...laser means it cuts like a laser...that is all
most knives get there by cheating (using near flat grinds and thin spines)
which comes with negative performance issues like flex and food stiction.
but you can have a "laser class" cutter with altigether diffrernt construction,
like the front half of a masamot KS...just one example
most knives get there by cheating (using near flat grinds and thin spines)
which comes with negative performance issues like flex and food stiction.
but you can have a "laser class" cutter with altigether diffrernt construction,
like the front half of a masamot KS...just one example
By thin edge, you mean 1cm above the edge? That tends to be the canonical measurement. By thin blade, my guess is it means halfway up the spine. And obviously spine is spine. I think if we quantify these and put them under classifications, things will make more sense to more people. We talk about lasers and midweight, but if I take a new knife and would like to know how it's classified, a guideline would be nice.
I mean with respect to cheating, that's fair but unless you're very very careful with your sharpening, your edge is not going to look like the stock edge after several sharpens. The blade geometry will change, so even if you did something amazing with the edge ootb, good chance yoully lose it later.
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All I was trying to say was that takamura red handle was a thin blade overall kinda like Sakai lasers are. You backed me into a corner here haha. I can’t really tell you offhand which measurements denotes lasers it’s really not my place.
Takamura red handle grind is different though, due to the manufacturing process being different.
I actually should have a Takamura Hana 210mm on the way, assuming the order was placed correctly. I imagine it'll be very similar to your hsps pro.
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For instance, I just used takamura red handle this morning for the first time ever to cook breakfast. My immediate first impression was “oh wow this moves through food like a laser!”
Don't mean to back you in a corner.
Just want to see more objectivity in the discussions here! I'm an engineer by profession so I like to analyze.
My impression is that "laser" denotes a type of performance in food rather than a particular set of measurements. As such, I've never seen an agreed upon set of dimensional definitions.
A knife's performance is strictly about its geometry and weight. If I make a clone of a great performing knife, then it will perform equally great, assuming I can get the weight distributed the same way. That's why I believe the measurements are important.
Where more expensive and better crafted knives come into play is through their ability to maintain or even be stable under the desired geometry. Even if the geometry is perfect, if the heat treat sucks and I can match the geometry but it chips on any kind of use, then that's a knock on its performance. Insofar as the edge is stable and I can clone the geometry, my performance is guaranteed.
What I'm really trying to say is... if your definition of a laser is "performs like a laser", there are measurable parameters that will quantify "performs like a laser", in which case I would love to know those parameters.
HRC_64
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yep... the laser metaphor means there is little feeling of resistance and little disturbance of the product...you cannot omit that the relation of the product to the knife is relevant, where it cuts...relative heights etc. So cannot reduce to single point of measurement what is a laser, especially so low to edge like 10mm
For sure it can't be one measurement, but 3 can probably summarize 90% of its performance parameters. @labor of love, sorry, I'm derailing this thread.
My final comment on lasers is that I also appreciate if you would take some measurements for me and I'll do the same when I get my Hana.
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I always thought of the lasers as the thin, light blades, and I’d include Takamura red handle and Shibata. The Taka Pro gets as thin as the red halfway along the length, but cuts like a laser (i.e. planks of squash, carrots, etc. without any splitting at all) even with the thicker part, which I’d attribute to grind/cross sectional geometry.
I have a 210 hana and red handle.
The hana is a stunning cutter.
I've never really bonded with the red handle, and for me the hana is the better cutter. It's a nice knife, and really good value for the money, but for me it's not in the same class. I actually have a bit of trouble thinking of it as a laser, at least compared to the hana and a tad I have.
Guess I'm going to have to spend a bit of time comparing them a bit mirs exhaustively.
The hana is a stunning cutter.
I've never really bonded with the red handle, and for me the hana is the better cutter. It's a nice knife, and really good value for the money, but for me it's not in the same class. I actually have a bit of trouble thinking of it as a laser, at least compared to the hana and a tad I have.
Guess I'm going to have to spend a bit of time comparing them a bit mirs exhaustively.
Interesting views and experiences.
Three of the thinnest and best cutting knives I have are damascus (Tanaka R2, Takamura Hana and Masashi Kobo SLD).
I also have a fair few dammy blades with 3-4 years of use which still look really good. Some are all but showroom condition. One of my dammy petties has been abused horribly as I learnt and experimented in sharpening. It doesn't look too bad to be honest. I do have one with a noticeable scratch or two from my very early days of sharpening.
As to etching, I guess it depends upon the knife. I have some R2 dammy blades which would benefit a bit from an etch, but then I've got a heavily abused, and thinned, Tanaka B2 dammy that doesn't need it. It just needs time for a patina.
I'm fairly relaxed about my knives, they are to be used, but I've never had bad experiences with my dammy blades.
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All will depend on how you sharpen. If you don't only sharpen the very edge — as when touching up — and start behind the bevel, you will change the finish up to 0.5-1cm (3/16-3/8") behind the very edge. The alternative is accepting a progressive thickening behind the edge after a few sharpenings and the corresponding performance loss.
I think many would be glad to have that as a finisher knife.
And that depends on the original geometry of the blade and/or how frequently it gets sharpened.
The Takamura Hana has got sharpened a fair bit, but the blade is so thin tbat it hasn't needed thinning yet. Not to a noticeable degree any way, and I generally sharpen ~10 degrees. At that angle I'm not hitting any serious steel, yet, and performance is not noticeably impacted.
The Tanaka B2, yes, that's being thinned on each sharpening, but that doesn't require etching to maintain appearances.
There's damascus, and then there's damascus.
Is it possible that the Hana may have a stable edge at even 8 degrees per side? I'd be curious as to how acute the edge is supposed to be ootb.
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An OOTB edge isn't necessarily to be used as such. Often it's just meant to make sharpening by the end user much easier.
My statement of ~10 degrees was a rough estimate.
In my early days sharpness equaled acutness of sharpening angle, so everything was sharpened very acutely.
The edge on the hana was very stable. It got a lot of use and held its edge significantly longer than w2, b2 or as. It was also very, very sharp, at least to me.
I don't honestly know what it's edge was out of the box, I tended to ignore that and put my own edge on anyway, at least when it needed a sharpening .
