JCK vs Bester vs Naniwa for combo

[pt9932]

Hi everyone! After getting my new Misono swedish steel gyuto I'm now considering upgrading my stone (a naniwa economical series 1000/3000), the main reason being that I'd like to try a larger stone.

First thing I want to ask is the grit: my first knife was a tojiro shirogami santoku and now it doesn't have a well defined angle at the bevel (my inconsistency in sharpening produced a undefined convex surface). Now that my skills have improved a bit I'd like to reset the bevel. Do I need a lower grit stone to do that or can I do it with a 1000 (and some patience)? I'm a bit afraid of the lower grits because I don't want to ruin it. I could also postpone this work for later and forgetting about the 400 for now.


Anyway, of course I need a 1000, so my choice falls between something like a 400/1000 combo (and getting a polishing stone later) and a 1000/6000 (and getting a coarser stone later).

My budget is around 70/90$ and at the moment I only saw these alternatives (i'm in europe):

-JCK's 400/1200 or 1000/4000 combo (both 65$)
-Naniwa 800/5000 (76€ from finetools)
-Bester 1000/6000 (65€ from finetools)

JCK is cheaper but Naniwa and Bester are 1cm wider, do they have any other plus for the extra money?

Do you have any other suggestion?

Thank you!

 

[Benuser]

No big fan of combo stones. My preferred ones are the Naniwa Professionals -- AKA Chosera. Idealiter 800 and 3k, result corresponding to JIS 1200 and 4k.
The 800 is a very versatile stone, can be used for thinning the Misono. If the 3k is above your budget, consider a piece of Belgian Blue (Brocken) instead, for stropping and deburring after the 800. You should be fine with that minimalist equipment as long as you only deal with simple carbons.

 

[Jovidah]

Technically speaking lower grit stones don't do anything you cannot do on a higher grit stone. They just do it a hell of a lot faster. If you're budget constrained you can opt to invest copious amounts of time instead of cash.
If you're afraid of ruining it, I'm not sure if grit size makes a huge difference. Higher grit makes things slower, which also means there's more time to get inconsistant. It's easier to hold a consistent angle for 5 minutes than it is for 30.

Regarding the stones... well... you're in a tough spot. As you probably already found out the choices are rather limited in Europe, especially after Naniwa prices ballooned over the last few years.

Another option are the stones sold by Japan-Messer-shop. https://www.japan-messer-shop.de/ja...--japanische-wassersteine/Kombischleifsteine/ If you google around a bit (and either understand German or use google translate) you should find quite some positive reviews on them on the German forums. They look a lot like the ones JCK sells, only 1 cm wider (although that is absolutely no guarantee that they really are the same).

If I were in your position though I'd be inclined to wait and save up. If you keep shopping in the lower regions there's a good likelihood you'll keep getting only marginal increases in performance, that in the long run might end up getting replaced again.
I'd lean towards getting larger single-grit stones and building up my collection bit by bit. But sadly that's almost impossible to do for a sub €100 budget.

For what it's worth; in principle larger stones really are worth getting. It felt like a big upgrade to me when I finally got larger stones compared to the usual budget size.

 

[Jovidah]

By the way.. the best prices for 'large size stones' are probably these ones: https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/ct/eden-quality-slijpstenen.htm
They're essentially a rebranded line of Naniwa traditional stones - except the 5000, which at least used to be from the super stone series. Probably not as good or fast as Naniwa Pro - and certainly not splash and go - but a lot cheaper.

 

[pt9932]

Ok, the idea of gettin better stones little by little doesn't sound bad to me. Would getting only a single 1000 stone be a better idea than getting a combo? I can always finish with my current 3000 side of economical naniwa.

If so, would a bester 1000 be a good idea (or the one Jovidah linkef from knivesandtools) ? Or I should look at the more expensive naniwa professional as Benuser suggest?

 

[Matus]

I would say - if you can only spend some 70€ at the moment, then get just a good quality 1000 stone (I would go with Shapton Pro - aka Ha-no-kuromaku - from finetools, that is a great, slow wearing, fast and nice feeling stone) and save up for a finisher (something like synthetic blue Aoto from JNS or Suehiro Rika from finetools). Use the 3000 side of your combo stone untill you get there. And later you can add a coarse stone.

I would not recommend going the 'intermediate' route. The stones will last you a long time, get a good ones right away.

 

[Jovidah]

Ok, the idea of gettin better stones little by little doesn't sound bad to me. Would getting only a single 1000 stone be a better idea than getting a combo? I can always finish with my current 3000 side of economical naniwa.

If so, would a bester 1000 be a good idea (or the one Jovidah linkef from knivesandtools) ? Or I should look at the more expensive naniwa professional as Benuser suggest?

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but if I recall correctly the bester 1200 was always preferred over the 1000 - though I haven't used either myself. For the same reason I'm hesitant to compare directly between the Imanishi and the Naniwa.
There is however one crucial difference between the Imanishi and the Naniwa: the Naniwa is a splash & go stone, while the Imanishi has to be soaked before use (although there's always the option to permasoak it).
Whether splash & go or a soak stone is preferred is largely a matter of personal preference and logistics. In my case I preferred a splash & go so I went with the Naniwa pro - although admittedly they were a bit cheaper when I got them.

The Shaptons are also splash & go.

 

[pt9932]

Thanks for the advice. I definitely don't mind soaking.

The shapton pro 1000 is 43€ which is not too bad if I decide to buy only one stone (for now). At that price I could also get a cerax or a bester single stone. Naniwa pro are out of budget and I don't know if i'm skilled enough to notice the difference in results.

I read good things about the besters, so why shouldn't I consider the combos? Aren't they basically two thinner stones glued together?

 

[Jovidah]

Keep in mind that the praise for the Besters is reserved for certain specimen in the lineup. That doesn't necessarily mean it applies to other stones in the lineup; they might be different. Another good example of this is the Naniwa professional line; I own the 400,1000,3000 and 5000 and while the 400 is decent, and the 1000 and 3000 are awesome, the 5000 was a huge dissapointment. Same manufacturer, same line, very different behaving stone compared to the others in the lineup.

Haven't used any of the Besters myself so I can't really go into them; for my situation I preferred splash & go, and my current set of stones is good enough to not look much further (especially after the Arashiyama 6000 / Awesomeyama 6000 landed here a while back solving the issue of the unlikable Naniwa 5000).

In general combo stones tend to be the cheaper budgetty solution, with quality being what you pay for. You also lack the flexibility in what specific grit or stone you choose. But iduno, I haven't actually used this one, so who knows it might be a pleasant surprise? Maybe someone has actually used it and can chime in? From what I can gather on it it isn't plagued by the 'soak only one side'-issue that some combination stones suffer from.

FWIW, my own purchasing influences were heavily influenced by the testing Stu wrote about on his blog: https://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=672
Just click to the left for the other newer entries; I think there's about 4 or 5 total.
It doesn't cover everything that's available, notably some of the forum favorites like JKI's Gesshin stones, Maxim's JNS stones, or original Suehiro stones but it should give you some idea. For me things were made easier because I was looking for a S&G, thus narrowing it down a lot. Also, at the time several options were smply not available in Europe.

Regarding the Shaptons; you might want to look a bit deeper into them before buying; they are not universally liked. While fast, slow-dishing, and splash&go they are also often described as lacking in feedback and not necessarily the most beginner-friendly.

 

[pt9932]

Ok thank you all for you advice!

Just to summarise, being in Europe I don't think I have many options to build a 3(or 2)-grit kit:

-Low-budget: imanishi bester 1k/6k combo + coarser stone (between 500 and 800). I first thought this was a good idea but I've been discouraged by everyone.

-Mid-budget: buy 3 single stones (for example 320/1000/5000 shapton pro would be around 120€ from tools from japan). I could also consider naniwa superstones or suehiro cerax sold from the same site. But none of them are liked by everyone. I could decide to spend the extra money if I was sure of which one would be good for me. Most important thing may be feel and feedback, I don't mind if it's splash&go or soaking and at the moment I don't have particularly difficult steels (only simple carbons).

-High budget, what Benuser told in the first reply: naniwa professional. Maybe too much.


I'm still tempted by the bester combo, being 2cm wider than my current stone would already be a big improvement. It has good reviews on CKTG and they advertise as the best combo they stock. Anyway I don't want to hurry and I will get more info about the shapton pros and suehiros.

EDIT: I just saw that tools from japan sells the Suehiro Rika #5000 with the Cerax #1000 stone for 46€+20€ shipping. You can buy them as a combination or as two separate stones for the same price. What do you think about that?

 

[Matus]

Cerax #1000 should be a good stone and Rika 5000 is highly regarded by many. that combination should work well.

 

[Jovidah]

A few things that come to mind in regard to your last post:

-A coarse stone is nice to have, but if you want to 'spread your purchases' it's probably the one to get last.

-Tools from Japan...ships from Japan. I'm not sure how good he is at playing customs-ninja (never bought from him myself) but there's at least a chance you'll have to pay import / customs / tax on top of just the shipping cost. How much it is depends per country but it tends to add a sizable chunk of extra money.

-Feine Werkzeuge / Fine tools also sells the Suehiro stones (though maybe at a slightly higher price), without playing customs lottery.

-I think rather few people really like the Naniwa super stones for knives. They work better with razors and such; they're a bit on the soft and slow side for knives (you can probably also read that from Stu's testing).

-All reviews are always positive on CKTG. Don't think too much of it...

-Naniwa Pros are great stones, but I'm not sure whether they're really any better than the other options. In my case it was an easier choice, since I really wanted S&G (thus taking a lot of the others off the table), and they were quite a bit cheaper a few years ago. But since S&G is not a requirement for you, I'm not sure how much 'better' they'd be in your case to warrant the premium.
Maybe someone who actually used Imanishi's, Suehiros and Naniwas and was able to compare them can chime in?

-I agree with your sentiment that 'larger size would already be a worthwhile upgrade'. Size really does matter. It's probably what I liked most about my upgrade to proper stones.

 

[daveb]

Everything on Togo is highly rated - they own the rating system.

And for the most part most websites have products that rate well. The customers are usually happy with their purchases and the ratings reflect that. (Togo has been said to drop the bad ones.)

Cerxax 1K and Suehiro 5K should be good set up. Would look for the Bestor 1200 and Suehiro. Most of the Bestor love is for the 1200.

 

[Grunt173]

The Bester 1200 and the Suehiro Rika 5k put a smile on my face when I use them.

 

[pt9932]

A few things that come to mind in regard to your last post:


-Tools from Japan...ships from Japan. I'm not sure how good he is at playing customs-ninja (never bought from him myself) but there's at least a chance you'll have to pay import / customs / tax on top of just the shipping cost. How much it is depends per country but it tends to add a sizable chunk of extra money.

I calculated that with import duties I should spend 88€ for the cerax 1000 and suehiro rika 5000 from TFJ. So still cheaper than finetools which would be 93€+10 shipping.

Chosing the bester 1200 would force me to pick it from finetools (i wouldn't save anything from TFJ) and with the rika would be 103+10=113. So 25€ more than cerax+rika from TFJ.

Do you think is worth it?

 

[Grunt173]

If that's the case,I would probably go with the Cerax 1000 and the Rika 5k . I never used the Cerax but have heard good things about it.

 

[Jovidah]

I calculated that with import duties I should spend 88€ for the cerax 1000 and suehiro rika 5000 from TFJ. So still cheaper than finetools which would be 93€+10 shipping.

Chosing the bester 1200 would force me to pick it from finetools (i wouldn't save anything from TFJ) and with the rika would be 103+10=113. So 25€ more than cerax+rika from TFJ.

Do you think is worth it?

If you already added the maximum import cost (there's usually some calculator to be found online; at least in the Netherlands there's several different costs that add up) and it's still cheaper then I guess your math checks out. Ordering from Japan will probably take longer, but it doesn't sound like you're in a hurry.

Either option is certainly a lot cheaper than for example the Naniwa's those currently clock in at a theoretical lowest of 150 euros for a 1000+3000 (K&T gives a special combo price if you order several of the set at the same time).

By the way ToolsfromJapan also sells the Bester 1200. It can be a bit of a pain in the ass to navigate all the stuff, but they have almost everything. Not sure how it would work out in shipping weight tho; it might just push you over the edge where it turns shipping a lot more expensive (for example because it has to be split into 2 packages).

Haven't used either the Cerax or the Bester so I can't really help you narrow it down between those two sets.

 

[pt9932]

Not sure how it would work out in shipping weight tho; it might just push you over the edge where it turns shipping a lot more expensive (for example because it has to be split into 2 packages).

Yep, I guess that's the reason why shipping jumps from 20 to 30euros if I remove the cerax and add the bester.

Here in Italy taxes for total value below 150euros should be 22% of items value (including shipping)+7.5 fixed rate.

 

[Tler]

If you are looking to just get a sharp edge, here's what I did in the very beginning as an extreme budgetting solution when I didn't have the $ for many stones:

Get a decent 1k which you will be happy with, cerax should work (I haven't personally used it, but like others I have heard good things).
And get green stropping compound to use with a strop. For extreme money saving, you can load a piece of cardboard (as a strop) with the compound and still get arm hair shaving-sharp results and near mirror polish on the edge.

This is a blunt and "ugly" method, but it worked well for me when I wasn't ready to invest in higher grit stones.

 

[rick alen]

The King 300 is a great beginners coarse stone. Real cheap, not too soft, fast enough, easy to use and the scratches it leaves are easily removed on a 1K.

I'll second the Iminishi 1-6K combo mentioned above. Never used it myself but only good said of it for a combo stone. I've been using a crappy-cheap 1-6K for years now and you know, even it mostly does the job. The iminishi combo will work as well as any good stone set. In the States the iminishi combo and King 300 would set you back less then $100, I suppose it would not be too much worse in Europe.

 

[pt9932]

The King 300 is a great beginners coarse stone. Real cheap, not too soft, fast enough, easy to use and the scratches it leaves are easily removed on a 1K.

I'll second the Iminishi 1-6K combo mentioned above. Never used it myself but only good said of it for a combo stone. I've been using a crappy-cheap 1-6K for years now and you know, even it mostly does the job. The iminishi combo will work as well as any good stone set. In the States the iminishi combo and King 300 would set you back less then $100, I suppose it would not be too much worse in Europe.

Thank you Rick, I've already ordered the cerax 1000 and the rika 5000 from toolfromjapan.
Thank also for the suggestion of the king 300. I was looking for a coarser stone around that grain, but I can wait a couple of month for that (and i still want to work a bit on my sharpening before using a coarse grain).
I was also considering cerax 400 or imanishi/bester 400. How do you compare them?

 

[rick alen]

Sorry no experience there, but I'm sure others will chime in.