Kramer Zwilling 10" Chef's Knive arrived

[Marko Tsourkan]

My heat treatment on 52100 is a derivative of Devin's, so you have an idea.

Devin has 30+ years of experience and his heat treatment of various steels reflects that. They might be mid- teckh knives, but his HT is a custom, while ZK is a high volume, production style HT. Devin does things that are not done in production setting.
I have no doubt as which results in a better edge retention. But it would be good to compare.



M



M

 

[EdipisReks]

are owners of the Z-BK still happy with them?

 

[DeepCSweede]

I love mine and am enjoying breaking it in. I still am working on getting a decent blue patina on it. I have large mitts and the handle fits me perfectly. I tried out several others in the purchasing process and the 10" was a winner hands down.

I also have the paring knife - I do not have as much love with that since the handle could be longer but it is 100 times better than the knife I replaced it with and I do love the 52100.

 

[deanb]

are owners of the Z-BK still happy with them?

I sure am. I started this thread last June 1st and since then I've used it quite a bit. I'm a home cook so I'm not the best guy to ask about edge retention but I'm impressed. I think Zwilling got this one right.

 

[NO ChoP!]

I find the parer to be the most functional and comfortable parer I've ever used.

The 10" chefs takes some getting used to. It has a very large flat spot before it curves up to a very fine point. The "sweet spot" is kind of oddly placed; the action used is unique to this knife and has a learning curve. That said, it's a terrific knife, with an awesome handle, nicely rounded AND polished choil and spine, and an unmatched distal taper. Some may actually find the tip too thin and flexible....

It's truly a love or hate knife....

 

[DeepCSweede]

I find the parer to be the most functional and comfortable parer I've ever used.

The 10" chefs takes some getting used to. It has a very large flat spot before it curves up to a very fine point. The "sweet spot" is kind of oddly placed; the action used is unique to this knife and has a learning curve. That said, it's a terrific knife, with an awesome handle, nicely rounded AND polished choil and spine, and an unmatched distal taper. Some may actually find the tip too thin and flexible....

It's truly a love or hate knife....

I agree with that and I definitely love mine. I had no intention of getting the 10" until I tried it out at SLT and that was it - I was sold.

 

[Lucretia]

I like my ZK utility knife more all the time. My first experience with a carbon knife, and I really like it--not hard at all to take care of it. The rounded spine and choil make a huge difference in the comfort. I'm starting to get some arthritis in my hands, and comfort is going way up on the list of requirements for my knives.

Another big advantage the ZKs have is you can get one right away. I'm in the queue for a custom, but it'll be a year and I need a knife in the meantime. It's frustrating--there are midtechs & customs I'd really like to try, but none of them are in stock. I'm considering about a ZK chef that I could get today if I so desire, and with all the good reviews, I might take a second look at a paring knife since I need one of those too. I'm tempted to try a Carter SFGZ, but a little concerned about how it will feel in my hand. I've seen a lot of complaints about F&F, whereas most people are pretty happy with the F&F on the ZK.

 

[Rick]

I've had this knife for 6-months and it has become my all around knife. The handle looked large and bulky but, you can prep a lot of stuff and not fatigue at all. The blade design is really quite sublime and is versatile to the point that I don't find myself switching knives except to a utility or small paring knife. I love sharpening the carbon steel and it can be made razor sharp. Holds an edge pretty well but, not as well as my demascus custom Kramer. The patina that has formed on the blade is just insane gorgeous if, you are into that sort of thing. All in all, I have been very happy with this knife. :thumbsup:

 

[NO ChoP!]

Alright, I'm going to call the Kramer out, and hope that no one that traded in their Vette to buy one doesn't come looking for me.... ( these people must be displaying these and not using them, as I can't believe NO ONE has pointed this out!)

The 10" Kramer is really a 6" Kramer attached to the front of a flat 4" cleaver!!! (I have the Z, but I'm assuming the real deal shares the profile, no?)

Really...

I find the front six inches and the back four to work very differently with zero cohesion between the two. This knife actually has two sweet spots! BUT, it has one spot, that lies between the front six and the back four that is useless, clumsy and actually poorly designed IMO.

I have been using this knife for quite some time now, and when I say use I mean professionally; I beat the snot out of it...

There are still lots of things I love about this knife; handle, steel, taper, tip; but it's awkwardness is something I haven't been able to overcome. It is actually something I have become cognitive of; either use the back end like a nakiri or a cleaver, or the front like a huge bellied chef knife.......

Hopefully, someone may take this into consideration before dropping the newly raised to $399 price tag.............

 

[DanB]

I posted on the Z-Kramer 10" already and was REALLY disappointed with it. F&F was not as good as I thought it should be at this price point (I'm a home cook who hasn't explored the world of custom knives, so some of you may still think $350 is modest. I don't). I tried to cut a beef rawhide for my dogs, something my Forschner's does with ease, and the attempt left a 1/4" gash in the steel. Yes, a gash, not a chip. Maybe I shouldn't cut such an object with this kind of knife, but a gash in the steel? Sorry, underwhelmed. Recently bought the 240mm CarboNext gyuto and like it MUCH more. Needs sharpening though.

 

[NO ChoP!]

People often refer to their favorite knife as an extension of their arm; it just feels natural. I do not get this with the ZKramer... where most knives sweet spot is, the ZKramer gets awkward and flat feeling. I would never draw cut from heel to tip with it.

My recent favorite has been the Moritaka KS. This profile lends to the largest sweet spot I've personally experienced. It's draw is as smooth as a sujihiki.

 

[a.lber.to]

I just KNEW I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:

 

[DeepCSweede]

I just KNEW I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:

Alberto,

Get it and give it a chance - if you don't like it send it back. Especially if you bought it through Sur La Table, they have a very lenient return policy. I still like mine, but I am a home chef, so I am not using it as much as NoChop. Mine sharpens well, cuts well, I like the balance a lot. I don't really notice the dead spot as much as Chris, but I think the analogy that it is two knives may be right on. I definitely use it in two spots, but I am tall and have huge mitts, so it fits me well and isn't that why you get a 10" / 270mm?

 

[a.lber.to]

Don't get me wrong, I read the thread through to the end, and then went ahead and ordered it - I was actually saying that I should NOT have read the thread at all!!!

Being in Europe, buying it is a bit more of a gamble, as if I return it I will be out of the shipping and the VAT I will most likely have to pay upon receipt (so, basically, that is unlikely to happen). Having read a lot about Kramer knives, I was very intrigued by his work and the shape of his knives, and this seemed like a low-enough entry point to see what that shape is all about... if I do not like it, I can always try to sell it locally in Europe.

 

[Crothcipt]

I posted on the Z-Kramer 10" already and was REALLY disappointed with it. F&F was not as good as I thought it should be at this price point (I'm a home cook who hasn't explored the world of custom knives, so some of you may still think $350 is modest. I don't). I tried to cut a beef rawhide for my dogs, something my Forschner's does with ease, and the attempt left a 1/4" gash in the steel. Yes, a gash, not a chip. Maybe I shouldn't cut such an object with this kind of knife, but a gash in the steel? Sorry, underwhelmed. Recently bought the 240mm CarboNext gyuto and like it MUCH more. Needs sharpening though.

Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night.

I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.

 

[jaybett]

Alright, I'm going to call the Kramer out, and hope that no one that traded in their Vette to buy one doesn't come looking for me.... ( these people must be displaying these and not using them, as I can't believe NO ONE has pointed this out!)

The 10" Kramer is really a 6" Kramer attached to the front of a flat 4" cleaver!!! (I have the Z, but I'm assuming the real deal shares the profile, no?)

Really...

I find the front six inches and the back four to work very differently with zero cohesion between the two. This knife actually has two sweet spots! BUT, it has one spot, that lies between the front six and the back four that is useless, clumsy and actually poorly designed IMO.

I have been using this knife for quite some time now, and when I say use I mean professionally; I beat the snot out of it...

There are still lots of things I love about this knife; handle, steel, taper, tip; but it's awkwardness is something I haven't been able to overcome. It is actually something I have become cognitive of; either use the back end like a nakiri or a cleaver, or the front like a huge bellied chef knife.......

Hopefully, someone may take this into consideration before dropping the newly raised to $399 price tag.............

I did mention it, back in July....

The Kramer edge while angled is flat until it sweeps up dramatically to the point. Eyeballing it, I'd say that at least 7 inches of the edge are flat. I don't think it would be unreasonable to characterize the Kramer as a nakiri with a tip. My hunch is that this is the reason why people who are use to gyutos find the Kramer odd. Since the cleaver is my main knife, the Kramer feels right.

Jay

 

[NO ChoP!]

Jay, that's awesome. I'm actually glad you have reinforced my sentiment....

I too still overall like the Kramer, just want people to be aware of its quarkiness.

 

[DanB]

Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night.

I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.

I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).

 

[Andrew H]

I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).

If you haven't sharpened your CarboNext yet I'm guessing you'll be happy with it. They are somewhat famous for coming with poor edges from the factory.

 

[qckfrze]

For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?

 

[mpukas]

I finally got to fondle a ZKramer in SLT in Boulder the other day. My thoughts echo Chris's and Jay's f/ above. They only had a crappy thin composite cutting board on a glass counter top, so the cutting surface was very noisy and strange and distractiong. The knife I used wasn't very sharp at all, but it still cut, sliced, cubed and juillened an apple very nicely. I like the handle design. I think issues w/ fit and finish around the handle and pins could be from the wood shrinking/swelling. Taper was very nice, thin at the tip, and spine thickness was no more than 3mm above the heel, I'm guessing. Grind was dead flat on the sides, no convexing.

I found the profile odd - calling it a kakiri w/ a tip is very accurate. I have a Moritaka kiri-gyuto that is dead-flat for the first 1/2-2/3 of the blade, and as with the ZK, it's somewhat akward, but I found the tip more strange. It's probably due to what I'm used to in Japanese gyuto profiles, as I like a tip to have a gentle curve and a bit of a flat spot behind the point. I found the ZK tip to be small in it's amount of curve and it was a continuos curve.

Overall, very nice for a factory produced knife. I prefer the profile of a gyuto, and there's no way I'd pay $400 for it.

 

[mpukas]

For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?

It's referred to as accordianing. It happen when a blade that is supposed to be dead flat has "holes" in the edge, or over-ground, or unevenly ground areas, along the primary/edge bevel.

It could be that the knife you tried was over-ground in the heel. I didn't notice it on the on I tried, but that's no to say it wasn't there. Sometimes an issue like this can be fixed with proper sharpening, other times it can be a big issue (chceck out the Moritaka threads w/ over-grind issues). Other folks here are a lot more experienced with this than I am, and will hopefully chime in.

 

[qckfrze]

I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.

Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?

 

[Andrew H]

I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.

Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?

Most knives we talk about here have flat spots near the heel. It helps to prevent accordioning when doing a push cut or chop. The problem seems to be either A. both knives had an overgrind in the same place (somewhat unlikely) or B. your technique isn't used to the new profile.

 

[tk59]

For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?

That is a defect borne out of carelessness. Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife.
@Lucretia: The fit and finish issues most often mentioned with regard to Carter knives have nothing to do with performance and comfort. I've seen and used a dozen or so and I own four and have seen no significant defects other than a tip broken during shipping which Murray offered to rectify.

 

[kalaeb]

Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife.
QUOTE]

The only fit and finish issue I have seen on these knives is a slight shrinking of the wood. But to be honest, every handle I have had that came from somewhere else has had the same issue here from customs to Cocobolo. Not sure if anyone else had the issue. Apart from that, the wood is well fit against the bolster, there are no gaps in the tang, the brass is brilliantly shined, the choil is very comfy to hold, polished and rounded all the way down, as is the machi. I would give the FF substiantially above par for every other J knife we talk about here.

 

[kalaeb]

Alot has been said about the amount of "flat" the ZKramer has, and it does, however, IMO the "flat" is what I like about it. Take my comments with a grain of salt, I like cleavers too...

The ZKramer has approx 10% more flat than the lusted after KS profile with the ZKramer coming in at 46% flat v. 36% on the Moritaka KS.

I did a basic comparison to some other commonly used knives and below are the percent of "flat" spots that some knives have and how the Kramer compares. The attached pictures are not the best and the amount of flat calculated was at the slightest curvature upwards, even though it is not clearly evident by the pictures.

Tojiro hammered 180mm: 41.6% flat

Fujiwara 240: 27% flat

DT 250: 26% flat

Moritaka KS 250: 36% flat

Misuno 270: 20% flat

ZKramer: 46% flat

 

[NO ChoP!]

Matt, I love posts like that; visual info rocks. Is your zk the 8"? I think the 10" literally is an 8" with 2 extra inches of flat space...

 

[NO ChoP!]

Maybe its just angle perspective.....

 

[stevenStefano]

That is a very interesting set of photos Matt, thanks. Flatness is an issue that interests me. Some of my favourite knives don't have a large flat area, but have a massive sweet spot which is a whole different kettle of fish