Looking for Upgrade to Victorinox Boning Knife

[backdoc]

LOCATION
What country are you in?

USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Boning knife (in this thread). I am also looking for a quality Chef's knife. I will create another thread for it.

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Western

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Approximately 6"

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

Probably lean toward stainless, but not a requirement

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

$125 - but, for a boning knife, it would have to be special at that price. I would figure that anything competing with my Victorinox boning knives would have to justify their price

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

At home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

I mostly BBQ/grill my food. Most of the food prep I do is in regards to that. For this knife, it would be my all purpose most used knife. I would mostly use it to trim uncooked meats like brisket, pork butts, pork loins, removing chicken breast cooked or uncooked whole birds - turkey, too

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Victorinox flexible boning knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Hammer grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

For this knife, I'm trimming

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? This is my primary purpose in buying a new knife. I don't care much about aesthetics. I think most knives would be comfortable enough for me to use for the length of time I'll be using it in one session. I like the non-slip grips of the Russell and Victorinox. They are quite practical, as am I.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Wood and plastic (Oxo)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

YES!! I love to sharpen. I can't find enough knives to sharpen. I think I enjoy, no I'm sure, I prefer sharpening a knife to actually using it. When I do use it, if there's any resistance at all, it drives me nuts. However, while I love to sharpen, I don't want a knife that won't hold an incredible edge. I want my knife to retain its edge. I find my Victorinox boning knives lose that scary sharp edge faster than I would prefer. That's why I want to step up.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

I always want to improve my sharpening skills through practice and experience.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

No. I don't think so. I am pretty well covered in that department. I have an EdgePro Apex. I have 500, 1000, 3000 Shapton Glass stones and a King 1000/6000 water stone. I have an Atoma 140. And, I have a ceramic rod, steel and leather strop.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I want something that has a flexible blade that I can apply side pressure and bend, almost like a filet knife. I have an old Rapala fish filet knife that I bought at a hardware store or big box store many years ago. I will sometimes pull it out when I really want to reach in and get close to the bone. It needs to be durable. It needs to be able to handle mild or slightly moderate abuse. I will take care of it and hand wash it, but I want a tool I can use, not a fragile tool that requires excessive pampering. A little common sense care is fine. I just wouldn't want something too impractical.

 

[jaybett]

Trimming - Most people will use a petty to trim and remove silver skin. Some will use a petty to debone poultry.

Boning - If you prefer western style but want to upgrade the steel. Tojiro makes western boning knives.

Munetoshi boning knife from JNS is highly regarded. It is meant to be used and abused.

Hankotsu a Japanese style boning knife. The tip has an asymmetrical edge, the back half of the knife has no edge. It is a safety feature in case the hand slips, plus it can be used to scrape bones. The black handle normally seen is reversible.

The hankotsu is good at removing larger bones. I use mine for deboning pork shoulder butts and ribs. Other members have commented that they are too cumbersome for smaller tasks such as poultry. The wa handled ones may be more precise.

Besides a filet knife, or possibly a petty or sujihiki, I'm not aware of a flexible Japanese boning knife.

Western knife makers such as Silverthorne have knives that are narrow bladed similar to Victorinox.

Jay

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

To make a flexible boning knife, it probably has to be a thin monosteel blade using a very tough steel. AEBL with a spine thickness under 1.8 or even 1.6 mm might be an option. But the edge retention might be just a very small step up from the x50-like steel that Victorinox uses. I would like to hear what others recommend as I also want a flexible butcher knife that has good edge retention.

 

[backdoc]

@jaybett Thanks for all of the suggestions. This Tojiro DP looks pretty nice. It seems to have the shape I'm looking for. I guess VG10 is respectable stainless. It's a little pricier than I was hoping for this knife, but not out of my budget. It would probably be my main goto knife for everything other than slicing/chopping veggies.

That Munetoshi is a pretty knife, too. I've been wanting to try a carbon steel blade. In fact, I've got this Swedish steel Misono Santuko in my cart at MTC Kitchen right now. As I mentioned in my post, I also want to get a chef's knife. So, I also have the Takamura R2 and the Misono UX10. I just haven't pulled the trigger. I can't decide what I want.

This might sound a little scatter brained because I am scatter brained right now. I've been wanting to get one or two "nice" knives. I just want to see what sharpening and using good steel is like. I figure I can spend up $300-500 on a couple of knives. I didn't want to go over $200 on any one knife. With 20% off right now, I could get all 3 I have in the MTC cart. It comes to $489 with a couple of sharpening accessories I've tossed in the cart. But, I know that I don't need them all. Hell, realistically, I don't "need" one.

I kinda want to try a carbon steel blade. But, longterm, I'd probably enjoy stainless because I don't want to have to pamper a knife too much. That's why I have those particular knives in my MTC cart. I had been focusing on chef knives. But, yesterday, I started thinking that even though all of my chef knives are cheap (Victorinox 8" and 10", Fiestaware branded Chinese crap), I do manage to get them sharp and no more than I use them, I'm probably covered good enough there. I think I use my Victorinox and Russell boning knives a lot more. So, I thought it might make more sense to start there. I'm tempted to pull the trigger on the MTC cart and just buy all 3 chef knives because I'm getting tired of researching knives. I mean, it's fun, but I'm spending what little free time I have researching. And, all of these Japanese names run together for me. And, I just keep going in circles. I've also looked at Japanese Knife Imports. But, I think everything I would buy is sold out. If they weren't, that's probably where I'd buy because I imagine Jon has vetted the grinds and heat treatments so I would be confident I was getting well made knives.

I'm usually a very practical person. I’m trying to be honest with myself about my wants vs. my needs. I'm at the point in my life where I don't mind spending a little money on "wants". I just don't want to go apeshit crazy with it.

By the way, just because it's called a boning knife, I wouldn't use it like a butcher would use one to strip the meat off the long bones. It's more of an all purpose knife to me. So, the specialized grind of the Hankotsu, wouldn't probably interest me.

 

[backdoc]

To make a flexible boning knife, it probably has to be a thin monosteel blade using a very tough steel. AEBL with a spine thickness under 1.8 or even 1.6 mm might be an option. But the edge retention might be just a very small step up from the x50-like steel that Victorinox uses. I would like to hear what others recommend as I also want a flexible butcher knife that has good edge retention.

That makes sense. It makes me think the step up in boning knife might not be worth the cost. Maybe I should focus on the chef knife. I've got to decide something soon. I'm starting to get an itchy trigger finger on some the carts I've got started.

 

[backdoc]

Trimming - Most people will use a petty to trim and remove silver skin. Some will use a petty to debone poultry.

Boning - If you prefer western style but want to upgrade the steel. Tojiro makes western boning knives.

Munetoshi boning knife from JNS is highly regarded. It is meant to be used and abused.

Hankotsu a Japanese style boning knife. The tip has an asymmetrical edge, the back half of the knife has no edge. It is a safety feature in case the hand slips, plus it can be used to scrape bones. The black handle normally seen is reversible.

The hankotsu is good at removing larger bones. I use mine for deboning pork shoulder butts and ribs. Other members have commented that they are too cumbersome for smaller tasks such as poultry. The wa handled ones may be more precise.

Besides a filet knife, or possibly a petty or sujihiki, I'm not aware of a flexible Japanese boning knife.

Western knife makers such as Silverthorne have knives that are narrow bladed similar to Victorinox.

Jay

I'm just curious what you think about these carts.

Here's my CKTG cart. I tossed in the Daovua. I thought for $50, it might be a fun carbon knife. I also put the Tojiro.

Here's my MTC cart. It doesn't show the 20% for everything except the Takamura because I couldn't fit the final price on the screen. The CKTG has the Kohetsu, which is HAP40. I figured it was about the same as the Takamura. This cart doesn't have the boning knife.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

I’m not one of those CKTG haters but buying Tojiro DP here would save you 20 bucks (20% in the cart).
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro-dp/curved-boning-knife-p113711
And I think Yaxell Mon is a better option for budget VG10 knives.
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/cart-products/cart-product-p136264
I personally use a Kanehide TK 150 petty to trim meats. I grab whatever I want to use at the moment to slice meats, but it’s usually a carbon steel 240 gyuto or a 270 suji.

Among all knives in your carts, Takamura R2 210 is usually highly regarded.

 

[SeattleBen]

People think very highly of these.

https://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/silverthorn-6-boning-o1-carbon-steel-black-micarta.html
They're out of stock but are a good answer to what you're looking for if you're available to be patient a while. Call Bernal and they'll give you an idea of timing.

It really eats half your budget but it's a handcrafted knife. That leaves another 150-250 for you to play with looking for a stainless chef knife which despite what you may hear tossed around here will get you quite a ways towards something really nice.

 

[backdoc]

I’m not one of those CKTG haters but buying Tojiro DP here would save you 20 bucks (20% in the cart).
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro-dp/curved-boning-knife-p113711
And I think Yaxell Mon is a better option for budget VG10 knives.
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/cart-products/cart-product-p136264
I personally use a Kanehide TK 150 petty to trim meats. I grab whatever I want to use at the moment to slice meats, but it’s usually a carbon steel 240 gyuto or a 270 suji.

Among all knives in your carts, Takamura R2 210 is usually highly regarded.

Thanks for the links. Now I have Cutlery and More cart started . I like that Tojiro. But, I have the Yaxell in there as well, for now. I'm trying to get just one order if I can. I'm having trouble consolidating.

I'm a Kenji fan and have his Food Lab book. He recommends the Misono UX10. That's why I started looking at Misono. I bought about $300 in sharpening stones and accessories from MTC Kitchen and had a good experience with them. So, I'm trying to buy from them again. Maybe I should look at their petty knives. They might have that Tojiro boning knife, too. I haven't checked. I also added that Kanehide to my CKTG cart. I'm going to have to start narrowing down what I have instead of adding more options. Do you not think that Misono Swedish Carbon Steel is a decent knife? I know it's not a Gyotu, but I like Santokus, too. It's 20% for another few days. So, I can get it for $94 right now. And, I really want to dip my toe in the carbon steel water.

 

[backdoc]

People think very highly of these.

https://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/silverthorn-6-boning-o1-carbon-steel-black-micarta.html
They're out of stock but are a good answer to what you're looking for if you're available to be patient a while. Call Bernal and they'll give you an idea of timing.

It really eats half your budget but it's a handcrafted knife. That leaves another 150-250 for you to play with looking for a stainless chef knife which despite what you may hear tossed around here will get you quite a ways towards something really nice.

Yeah. I saw that recommended once already. I noticed it was scarce. But, I did find one place to buy it. It might be a fine knife, but I'm put off by the looks of it. I know that's not what matters and aesthetics aren't a huge deal for me. I haven't ruled out any knives yet. But, it's hard to get past the looks of this one, just my opinion.

 

[backdoc]

I’m not one of those CKTG haters but buying Tojiro DP here would save you 20 bucks (20% in the cart).
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro-dp/curved-boning-knife-p113711
And I think Yaxell Mon is a better option for budget VG10 knives.
https://www.cutleryandmore.com/cart-products/cart-product-p136264
I personally use a Kanehide TK 150 petty to trim meats. I grab whatever I want to use at the moment to slice meats, but it’s usually a carbon steel 240 gyuto or a 270 suji.

Among all knives in your carts, Takamura R2 210 is usually highly regarded.

I wonder if any of these petty knives or the boning knives I've been looking at are as flexible as my Victorinox. I do love my Victorinox knives. I don't mean to sound like I don't. It's just that it feels like I can feel them losing their edge in the short time I am using them.

This looks pretty good.
https://mtckitchen.com/takamura-hsps-petty-130mm-5-1/
And, this one is carbon.
https://mtckitchen.com/tsukiji-masamoto-carbon-steel-petty-150mm-5-9/
Neither are going to break the bank. Tsukiji is a brand I've never heard mentioned before. I have no idea if they are reputable. Average fit and finish is fine with me. For me, it's pretty much all about the steel and how well it cuts.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

I never used Misono so cant speak for it. I heard Mac Pro is also a decent choice in that price range.

Sanmai knives are usually not flexible. In other words they won’t come back if they bend beyond a certain (not too large) degree. That Tsukiji Masamoto looks like a monosteel knife so it could be somewhat flexible but I’m not sure. SK steels are not reputable for edge retention but they are considered tough, so it might work. I’d confirm with MTC before pushing the button though.

 

[M1k3]

@Barclid is quite knowledged about MTC.

 

[dafox]

Concerning the MTC discount:
20% discount valid on select items** with EXTEND20 at mtckitchen.com. Promo code must be entered at checkout to receive a discount. Offer valid until May 14, 2020, 12:00 pm ET **Select Items excluded (Takamura/Tsukiji Masamoto...

 

[backdoc]

Concerning the MTC discount:
20% discount valid on select items** with EXTEND20 at mtckitchen.com. Promo code must be entered at checkout to receive a discount. Offer valid until May 14, 2020, 12:00 pm ET **Select Items excluded (Takamura/Tsukiji Masamoto...

I knew about Takamura. At this point I’m not sure what I have saved in my cart that is covered other than Misono and my sharpening accessories.

 

[SeattleBen]

The misono are good knives at decent prices. The UX10 was a staple for higher end knives when I was still in kitchens for those who cared about such things. Their swedish carbon is supposed to be super reactive but all patina's will settle down over time as you use them.

Also caring about how a knife looks is important so don't feel bad about that.

 

[backdoc]

The misono are good knives at decent prices. The UX10 was a staple for higher end knives when I was still in kitchens for those who cared about such things. Their swedish carbon is supposed to be super reactive but all patina's will settle down over time as you use them.

Also caring about how a knife looks is important so don't feel bad about that.

Thanks. I really don't care how my knife looks. Buying a knife for noob is hard.

 

[jaybett]

Buying a knife for noob is hard.

In the beginning it's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to make a decision about which to knife to buy. There is so much information out there and so many opinions.

Keep things simple and focus on one knife at a time. Since the gyuto will see the most use in the kitchen, it's a good place to start.

The goal is to find a knife that works for you. It's a process that will probably take 2-3 knifes, before finding the right one.

Looking back, if I had to do it all over again. I'd take my time getting a feel for a knife, instead of rushing to buy new knives.

Which knife to buy first? The Misono is a good choice. Use it, sharpen it, use it some more. After you are comfortable with it, try something different. A carbon knife with a new profile. Each knife helps to make a more informed decision on what knife to try next.

After the third gyuto I pretty much knew what I was looking for in a knife. When a knife came up for sale by one of the local makers, it was exactly what I wanted. Fortunately I was able to get it.

Good luck in your search,

Jay

 

[backdoc]

In the beginning it's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to make a decision about which to knife to buy. There is so much information out there and so many opinions.

Keep things simple and focus on one knife at a time. Since the gyuto will see the most use in the kitchen, it's a good place to start.

The goal is to find a knife that works for you. It's a process that will probably take 2-3 knifes, before finding the right one.

Looking back, if I had to do it all over again. I'd take my time getting a feel for a knife, instead of rushing to buy new knives.

Which knife to buy first? The Misono is a good choice. Use it, sharpen it, use it some more. After you are comfortable with it, try something different. A carbon knife with a new profile. Each knife helps to make a more informed decision on what knife to try next.

After the third gyuto I pretty much knew what I was looking for in a knife. When a knife came up for sale by one of the local makers, it was exactly what I wanted. Fortunately I was able to get it.

Good luck in your search,

Jay

Thanks.

 

[backdoc]

I just wanted to follow up and let you know that I ended up with a Suien 150mm Petty from JKI. I went with it for 2 main reasons.

1. it was in stock
2. There was less overlap in knives I already owned. I have chef knives and boning knives, albeit lower quality stainless. But, I don’t own any petty or carbon knives. Part of my goal was to experience something knew. So, this seemed to fit the bill.

I haven’t had a chance to even use it yet. But, I will try to follow up with additional comments if I notice anything noteworthy.

Thanks for all of the input from everyone.

 

[M1k3]

I just wanted to follow up and let you know that I ended up with a Suien 150mm Petty from JKI. I went with it for 2 main reasons.

1. it was in stock
2. There was less overlap in knives I already owned. I have chef knives and boning knives, albeit lower quality stainless. But, I don’t own any petty or carbon knives. Part of my goal was to experience something knew. So, this seemed to fit the bill.

I haven’t had a chance to even use it yet. But, I will try to follow up with additional comments if I notice anything noteworthy.

Thanks for all of the input from everyone.

Please do let us know. I don't really see anyone talk about that brand.