Micro chipping on Takeda - how maintain?

[Viggetorr]

Hi,

I recently bought a Takeda bunka and today I noticed som micro chipping near the tip of the blade, see picture below.

The chipping

Choil shot to show thinness of blade

I've been maintaining it with a ceramic rod, but heard from a friend that rods may cause damage to edges as thin as a Takeda. I have two questions:

1. Can I keep using the rod or should I have the knife sharpened/repaired and avoid the rod in the future?

2. If I shouldn't use a rod, how do I maintain the edge of the knife?

 

[Wdestate]

if you dont bang around a fine ceramic rod should not chip your edge, but wrong technique with it it certainly could, however the rod eventually is not going to be enough you are basically just honing not sharpening. you will eventually need to either sharpen it with stones or send it to someone to sharpen, i would wait till the knife is dull though before i did either option personally, unless you notice the micro chips messing with the way it performs. they will sharpen out on the next sharpening or two.

look into strops, its kinda like using a honing rod but a bit nicer on your blade and can maintain a higher polished edge then a rod.

 

[KimBronnum]

I wouldn't use a rod an a Japanese blade.
Alternatives: newspaper on a flat surface and pull the knife on the left side and push on the right side (If you know what I meen)- like If you were doing it on a sharpening stone. You can also make a piece of flat wood and gule hard, flat felt on it and do as above. You use the same angel as for sharpening. You want the edge to "just" connect with the newspaper/felt... but don't go steeper than that. Use light pressure - next to none. Go about 10 times on each side. Go slow and focus on keeping a consistent angel. This way is pretty forgiving reg. the angel. You can do this on any flat surface with a varialy of materials under the blade. Jeans cloth (dont know what it is called) and balsa Wood with an abrasive (polishing paste or diamond spray) can also work.
It bacame long, hope it is also useful 😀
- Kim

 

[JaVa]

My experience is that if the edge get's rolled or has a burr, with a knife made from as hard of a metal as the Takeda is made of, using a honing rod does not align that edge back up the same way it would with a softer metal in euro knives, but rather start chipping that rolled edge (or burr) off. Hence the micro chips.

+1 for the (leather) strop, but you can strop also on news paper, cardboard or on a loaded balsa wood.

 

[OliverNuther]

I've got exactly the same bunka and I've never had a problem with micro chipping but then I never use ceramic rods either. The micro chipped area is probably the point of initial contact against the rod so it seems reasonable to assume that the rod is the culprit. As has been stated, the chips will sharpen out easily enough.

In answer to your specific questions:

Yes, stop using the rod immediately.

Yes, have the knife sharpened to remove the micro chipping.

Yes, avoid future use of the rod.

All the above advice on stropping is valid and effective. Another option for maintenance in between sharpenings is edge trailing strokes on a stone which is what I do.

 

[panda]

ceramic rod is perfectly fine to use so long as you have proper technique. rods are frowned upon because people dont know how to use them right and blame the product.

 

[Nemo]

Agree with all of the above.

Avoid using a honing rod on this type of hard steel if possible. See this vid: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&v=FStkYx0AH1Y

Stropping will refresh a tired edge nicely. With stropping as required, you should get pretty long edge retention from this knife. I strop on balsa loaded with 1 um diamond (anywhere in the range 0.25 to 10 um or more have been described and seem to work OK) but the other stropping options mentioned here should work fine.

Get it sharpened when stroping doesn't last very long.

Or even better, learn to sharpen. It's actually a lot less difficult than it seemed to me before I started. And its kinda fun.

The JKI vids that Jon has done are a great introduction to sharpening.

 

[Benuser]

I've got exactly the same bunka and I've never had a problem with micro chipping but then I never use ceramic rods either. The micro chipped area is probably the point of initial contact against the rod so it seems reasonable to assume that the rod is the culprit. As has been stated, the chips will sharpen out easily enough.

In answer to your specific questions:

Yes, stop using the rod immediately.

Yes, have the knife sharpened to remove the micro chipping.

Yes, avoid future use of the rod.

All the above advice on stropping is valid and effective. Another option for maintenance in between sharpenings is edge trailing strokes on a stone which is what I do.

Excellent advice.

 

[Viggetorr]

Thanks you all for the advice, I will stop using the rod and try stropping instead!

I've got exactly the same bunka and I've never had a problem with micro chipping but then I never use ceramic rods either. The micro chipped area is probably the point of initial contact against the rod so it seems reasonable to assume that the rod is the culprit. As has been stated, the chips will sharpen out easily enough.

The chipped area is actually the last part of the blade that has contact with the rod, but I've had the impression that I accidentally increase the angle towards the end of the stroke. Maybe this is increasing tension on the edge and causing the chipping?

Yes, stop using the rod immediately.

Yes, have the knife sharpened to remove the micro chipping.

Can I continue to use the knife until I've had it sharpened or could that cause further chipping?

ceramic rod is perfectly fine to use so long as you have proper technique. rods are frowned upon because people dont know how to use them right and blame the product.

What would you consider proper technique for a blade as thin as a Takeda?

 

[KimBronnum]

Nothing Wong with using it with chips for the knives sake.
- Kim

 

[Razor]

I am new to knives, but I don't see why you would use a rod on a properly honed high carbon steel knife. If the knife has a proper edge and is of sufficient Rockwell hardness 61+, why would it need much sharpening at all. At most I would strop it on leather charged with Mother's Billet Polish. This should be all you need until the next sharpening session.

 

[Noodle Soup]

A 1000 grit stone would take those chips out in a couple of minutes. Use a light touch on a ceramic rod, none of that flashy butcher steel stuff from the movies.

 

[milkbaby]

Personally, using a ceramic rod goes on a case by case basis. I prefer Kim's method of stropping on newspaper. Only when that seems inadequate then I switch to stropping on a waterstone or using a rod depending on the knife and how lazy I'm feeling at the time.

On the rod, it's possible you're changing the angle at the tip or maybe not... It's further away from your hand, so a small change in how you're holding it could potentially pivot the knife more at the tip.

 

[loong]

I use SG500 to remove microchips on my Sugimoto 7, it works great.

 

[LucasFur]

Had a similar issue myself. Microchiping from board use. Sharpened out the first or second time on the stones. Just use more pressure on the edge as opposed to the back of the bevel this will cause a slight thinkening of the final edge.

 

[Benuser]

Had a similar issue myself. Microchiping from board use. Sharpened out the first or second time on the stones. Just use more pressure on the edge as opposed to the back of the bevel this will cause a slight thinkening of the final edge.

Better change the angle. Pressure before the very edge is OK, on the final edge leads to instability.

 

[zetieum]

Clearly ceramic rod on hard steel is not ideal. But my experience with new takedas is the similar: the edge is chippy until the first sharpening. Afterwards, no problem (at least on this side).

 

[jferreir]

I noticed similar microchipping when I first got my Takeda, although it was toward the heel of the knife and not the tip. I'm still convinced my roommate was the culprit since I babied the knife and never noticed any microchipping myself. Not to worry, though, everything came out with a few strokes on the 1000 stone, and I haven't had any issues since.

On a separate note, what grit progression do folks recommend for Takeda knives? I have a Naniwa SuperStone 1000/5000 combo, and the Takeda absolutely hates the 5000 grit stone. After a few passes, it wedges in absolutely everything, as if I had just applied superglue to the bevels. As soon as I take it back down to the 1000 stone, it cuts like butter.

Can someone please help me understand why? Frankly, I have no idea how one matches steels to stones; it's just one big mystery to me.

 

[cenc]

This also looks like it could be an issue of rust corrosion making the edge weak.

I always finished my takeda on natural stones and I never had issues with chipping on used poly boards at work. I put a nicely rounded micro bevel and this aided a lot in cutting action as well.

 

[Viggetorr]

This also looks like it could be an issue of rust corrosion making the edge weak.

I always finished my takeda on natural stones and I never had issues with chipping on used poly boards at work. I put a nicely rounded micro bevel and this aided a lot in cutting action as well.

No rust that I can see. I bought some stones and sharpened it, will see how it turns out after that.

What degree on the micro-bevel?

 

[cenc]

I see a pit of rust, or heavy patina, right near where the jigane ends at the tip. Just saying, even if you wiped the oxidation from the very edge, there still could have been some damage that made the chips more likely to occur. Also, it is just a theory.

Because I don't use any angle or bevel guides. My microbevels tend to be around 20 to 25 degrees I think..

I sharpen by edge feel. I can feel when I am sharpening just behind the edge, and then when I am sharpening the edge itself. I try to do most work just behind the edge because I have a wide range of stone grits and can erase scratches. Sharpening the edge at the end consists of some back and forth scrubbing along the entire edge, making sure I burr all of the length of the blade. Then do the other side. Work until you are doing one stroke on each side to remove the burr and refine the edge. I don't ever have wire edges because I have a progression to fine grit naturals.

 

[LucasFur]

Better change the angle. Pressure before the very edge is OK, on the final edge leads to instability.

Agreed, but you can slowly change the angle of that bevel over time.
Takeda's are almost made to be sharpened on stones.
basically, i found it with the OOTB edge my takeda was chippy, especially at the tip where my technique was not the best. And after 2/ 3 touchup sharpenings it all went away.
so to the OP dont fret, if after a few touchups your still having issues put a microbevel, even a microbevel on one side will help a lot.