My BNIB Narra honyaki gyuto wedges badly

[labor of love]

It’s a bnib knife.

 

[ian]

I'm glad you guys can see it this way.

I've seen some of my knives going on the BST with a profile that looks nothing like what I originally sold. There's a noticeable problem with the way some people sharpen which I could highlight, but that might put a negative spotlight on certain users and could possibly decrease the value of some people's holdings. So far I've publicly kept quiet, only privately mentioning how to avoid the potential problem to the buyers of new knives. I'm really not sure if I should come out and say anything.

At the risk of a short off-topic, were you going to highlight something more complicated than "raise an even burr"? I don't think I've had any problem maintaining the original profiles on my knives, but curious what you'd say here. I imagine you could indicate some useful tips without saying anything specific about knives you've sold. I get your reticence, though, so no worries.

 

[Kippington]

At the risk of a short off-topic, were you going to highlight something more complicated than "raise an even burr"? I don't think I've had any problem maintaining the original profiles on my knives, but curious what you'd say here.

The short version:

• There's a (rightfully) high demand for knives that are thin behind the edge. The original post in this thread is a good example of that.
  
• Thin cross-sections of steel are more flexible than thicker cross-sections. The tip of a tapered knife with a thin edge can be very flexible.
• If you use the same sharpening pressure on rigid steel as you do on flexible steel, without proper technique the original profile will change over time.

The really experienced sharpeners amongst us will know this already. People like JKI's Jon who have dealt with sharpening through the span of a knife's entire lifetime, they know how to avoid the potential longer-term problems. Jon explains methods that avoid long-term issues in the "how to" videos, but because there's no indication given on what might happen if you don't follow it, the lesson is easily overlooked by the less experienced sharpeners.

For example, how many of you actually use this exact technique for sharpening tips, or have at least considered why the tip might need to be sharpened in a different manner from the rest?

I'm not saying you have to copy this exactly (I use a different technique), but there are reasons and subtleties to it that might not be so obvious to the less-experienced sharpener.

I've seen second-hand knives on the BST where these things have apparently not been taken into consideration.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

 

[captaincaed]

I think this is a good topic to explore. I have a pair of practice knives that have certainly changed over the years. Teaches me a lot before I break out the drawer queens.

 

[Kippington]

Yes, perhaps I should start a new thread on this topic and related things.
Ugh, I'm so lazy though!

 

[Luftmensch]

The knife was bought second hand brand new in box. I see no problem with commentary concerning ootb poor performance.

There is 'law' and there is 'morality'... By law, as I understand it, BNIB doesnt matter. A vendor/manufacturer cant reasonably be held accountable for what happens to a product between between the initial point of sale and private resale. The label "BNIB" is subject to the honesty/morality of the private seller.

The only exception to this (again... as I understand it)... is product recalls. If a product is dangerous and has been recalled, the manufacturer is compelled by regulators to assume responsibility.

So poor old @Briochy doesnt have a legal leg to stand on here. It is good customer service for Narra to offer to replace the knife... but playing the devils advocate here - what if the person who commissioned the knife asked for a wedge monster? You can't point the finger at Narra....

But still... being second hand it gets complicated when guarantees and warranties come up, whether it's BNIB or not.

Yup... and the biggest irritation I have on BST is 'NOS'**. For-gods-sake... you drive a car off the lot and it is immediately second hand. There is no such thing as a NOS private sale.

I don't think the maker should be responsible or have any obligation for the performance of a second hand knife, doubly so for custom knives.

Agreed 100%... As has been noted... a lot can happen to a knife once it gets into the hands of a person who maintains it themselves... or as @ynot1985 points out... even some professional outfits. "BNIB" is only reliable as the seller's word...


This all said. If you buy a second hand knife and are unhappy with it, I do think it is reasonable to seek advice from the original smith (if you can) with the expectation that you will pay for any further costs if they are willing to help. Peoples time aint free!


** So sue me... I am a pedant!

 

[labor of love]

By Narra’s own admission he doesn’t make knives with thick edges so clearly something is not right here.
Narra doesn’t “have to do” anything about it here I agree and never suggested otherwise.
By that same token if Narra makes knives that don’t perform well then yeah he’s just going to have to hear about it. That’s literally the point of the forum, open discussion. Last I checked no one was suggesting going to court over this or hiring lawyer’s rather it’s a litmus test in real time for what kind of service to expect from this maker.

 

[Michi]

I have stayed out of this thread until now, but have been reading all the posts.

I don't want to pass judgement on anything that has been posted here by anyone. Rather, I'd like to offer a general observation.

Over the past five years or so, there has been a general trend to use social media as a lever. "If you do not give me a refund, I'll post this whole story on Facebook." Or "see how much this is going to cost you compared to giving me what I want if I tell this story on Instagram."

To me, this amounts to, in the worst case, blackmail. In the best case, it's leaning on a vendor who may have done little (or nothing) wrong to force my will on them.

Worse, people resort to posting on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, or whatever without even bothering to get in touch with the vendor. I vividly recall an episode by Burrfection where he tried out a guided sharpening jig. He found that his knife didn't get sharp and posted the entire thing with an inflammatory title that amounted to (essentially) "this jig doesn't work." If you bothered to watch the video through to the bitter end, it turned out that he had made a mistake, didn't read the instructions properly, and basically did it wrong. Most people would not watch the rather long video, of course. But that didn't stop him from posting his video with its inflammatory title, regardless. I shudder to think how much damage he did to that business by posting a video with a title that was grossly misleading.

Moral of this story: the fair and ethical thing to do, always, is to contact the vendor first, explain the problem, and see whether the vendor offers an acceptable remedy. There may be many reasons (most of which the buyer has no idea of) for why things went wrong in the first place, without the vendor being at fault. Only if the vendor isn't reasonable, and only then, might it be (but not necessarily is) appropriate to post on a forum, or Facebook, or whatever.

In the above exchange, the one thing that amazes me most is that the vendor actually offered a replacement, after everything that was said. I strongly suspect that he didn't do that because he is such a nice guy. More likely, he did it in a desperate attempt to mitigate the damage to his business that had already been done.

Sites like Facebook and Instagram remind me of the old Wild West: people taking the law into their own hands. And of lynch mobs.

I intensely dislike trial by social media. It is wrong, it panders to populism, and it is ethically reprehensible. Whether it be on this forum or anywhere else, 99% of the time, posting on social media will result in a miscarriage of justice.

 

[daveb]

By that same token if Narra makes knives that don’t perform well then yeah he’s just going to have to hear about it. That’s literally the point of the forum, open discussion.

The knife is certainly fair game. It looks like a pig and should be described as such. But. To me the thread was not about the knife but about the maker - without giving the maker a chance to respond to the issue.

 

[Briochy]

I don't know what to say about all thia mess other than I learned the lesson. Now, anybody can blame me for using the forum as a leverage of power and I accept that judgement cuz no matter what my intentions were, the result is that I will get a new copy of the knife. However, what I wanted was just to make a point that my Narra isn't usable. I wasn't aware that contacting the maker was a choice (or at least it didn't occur to me) so I vented it here, albeit with a way too exaggerated tone. I know that this is reprehensible and I definitely won't do this again.

 

[cheflife15]

He did contact the maker? Its a bnib knife. The maker didn't exactly offer to fix it immediately. Im curious if he's on, or read about it on the forum. At the end of the day he should've contacted the maker first, but to say the person before him commissioned a wedge monster doesn't really hold water.

 

[panda]

this reminds me of lets everybody sh*t all over takeda thread

 

[Michi]

Maybe it's time to let things rest?

People have atoned for their sins, another knife is on its way, the sun will almost certainly rise again tomorrow. Move along, nothing to see here…

 

[Kippington]

 

[Briochy]

Well, just think people deserve to know an update on this purgatory... He has gone MIA, so the promise wasn't fulfil after all. At this point I'm letting go of it, but please people seriously be careful of this maker. I know some people have a good experience dealing with him, but mine was terrible.

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

If I was a maker offering to replace a second hand BNIB knife. I would be expecting to get the problem knife back in the same BNIB condition. Any attempts by the owner to fix the problem knife would absolve me of any responsibility in my mind as it would no longer be representative of what came out of my shop.

 

[labor of love]

Well, just think people deserve to know an update on this purgatory... He has gone MIA, so the promise wasn't fulfil after all. At this point I'm letting go of it, but please people seriously be careful of this maker. I know some people have a good experience dealing with him, but mine was terrible.

Yeah, I thought there was chance this might happen. Not surprised at all.

 

[jacko9]

I surprised that no one mentioned the BNIB from the re-seller?

 

[milkbaby]

To be fair, OP didn't have any dealings with the maker other than complaining to the maker about a knife he bought second hand from another person... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you buy a second hand Corolla and complain to Toyota that it doesn't perform like a Ferrari, I wonder what response one should expect to receive.

 

[labor of love]

To be fair-the maker said he would replace the knife. Which he didn’t. Unless there’s more to the story besides @Briochy screenshot, looks like he’s just avoiding him.

 

[Briochy]

To be fair, OP didn't have any dealings with the maker other than complaining to the maker about a knife he bought second hand from another person... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you buy a second hand Corolla and complain to Toyota that it doesn't perform like a Ferrari, I wonder what response one should expect to receive.

That discussion was had before and was ended. But to be clear, the knife was BNIB. It came with a pristine mirror finish, so it couldn't have been used heavily, if at all. So your metaphor is invalid. The seller promised he would replace it either way. However, now he is not replying to me at all.

 

[jacko9]

That discussion was had before and was ended. But to be clear, the knife was BNIB. It came with a pristine mirror finish, so it couldn't have been used heavily, if at all. So your metaphor is invalid. The seller promised he would replace it either way. However, now he is not replying to me at all.

This is the last I'll comment on this topic but, the seller to you was the original owner that bought it from the maker and you don't know what that seller did with the knife as far as I can tell. Being brightly polished "could mean" that he buffed it out after "who knows what"? You keep mentioning the original maker as the seller to you - that's my issue. Again, that's all I have to say about this topic and for me it's closed. Good luck with your knife, I do hope you get satisfaction. Sorry about sounding negative.

 

[ma_sha1]

I don’t see why the maker owns op a new knife to begin with. Looks & claims BNIB from second hand does not mean it’s actually BNIB.

One can not rule out a distinct possibility that the knife is heavily used, sharpened enough times until thick behind edge, then polished up & sold as BNIB, or another distinct possibility the knife could be a fake knockoff.

If the maker felt being forced into making a new knife for free, forced to yield under the pressure of social media blackmailing, & later decided not to give in after all, good for him!

The victim here, IMHO, is the maker not the OP.

 

[Barmoley]

I don’t see why the maker owns op a new knife to begin with. Looks & claims BNIB from second hand does not mean it’s actually BNIB.

One can not rule out a distinct possibility that the knife is heavily used, sharpened enough times until thick behind edge, then polished up & sold as BNIB, or another distinct possibility the knife could be a fake knockoff.

If the maker felt being forced into making a new knife for free, forced to yield under the pressure of social media blackmailing, & later decided not to give in after all, good for him!

The victim here, IMHO, is the maker not the OP.

He owns him a new knife because he said he would make him a new knife. This argument was valid before the maker made the offer. This has already been discussed and regardless of anyone's opinion, once the maker made a promise, he should stick by it. Same would apply to the buyer if the buyer promised to buy the knife for example. If the maker felt pressured and gave in, tough but to me once a promise is made, just to disappear is pretty low.

As far as conspiracy theories again, this is not a maker anyone would fake at least not yet.

 

[daveb]

The maker committed to making a knife. But he didn't commit to making it next.

Too much drama here.

 

[panda]

I'm glad you guys can see it this way.

I've seen some of my knives going on the BST with a profile that looks nothing like what I originally sold. There's a noticeable problem with the way some people sharpen which I could highlight, but that might put a negative spotlight on certain users and could possibly decrease the value of some people's holdings. So far I've publicly kept quiet, only privately mentioning how to avoid the potential problem to the buyers of new knives. I'm really not sure if I should come out and say anything.

no way, people who destroy knives should absolutely be called out.

for example i modify pretty much every knife i buy. if a maker were to mention that what my knife looks now is totally different from what they originally sold, i would have zero issues with that!!

 

[Kippington]

The knives are hardly destroyed, just subtly different.
And anyway the topic is part of a larger, more complicated train of thought. The last thing I want to do is start a sh!t throwing contest.
I like this forum too much for that.

 

[Barclid]

The knives are hardly destroyed, just subtly different.
And anyway the topic is part of a larger, more complicated train of thought. The last thing I want to do is start a sh!t throwing contest.
I like this forum too much for that.

I think I can sum up the heart of this imaginary thread with "people suck at sharpening".

 

[Dhoff]

Well, just think people deserve to know an update on this purgatory... He has gone MIA, so the promise wasn't fulfil after all. At this point I'm letting go of it, but please people seriously be careful of this maker. I know some people have a good experience dealing with him, but mine was terrible.

Thank you for the update. Wonder what the original owner thought of the knife, whether he/she cut with it at all.

Personally I'd still hesitate to call the Maker out as bad business, he might have reasons for not answering such as health- or personal issues. Makers are human too (sorta, maybe a bit like someone from Marvel)

 

[Eloh]

I don’t see why the maker owns op a new knife to begin with. Looks & claims BNIB from second hand does not mean it’s actually BNIB.

One can not rule out a distinct possibility that the knife is heavily used, sharpened enough times until thick behind edge, then polished up & sold as BNIB, or another distinct possibility the knife could be a fake knockoff.

If the maker felt being forced into making a new knife for free, forced to yield under the pressure of social media blackmailing, & later decided not to give in after all, good for him!

The victim here, IMHO, is the maker not the OP.

Agreed, also the maker didn't post on Instagram since last year, wich seems to be his #1 business platform. I doubt he "disappeared" completely just to avoid the op wich he has no legal obligation to. Terrible thread all around.