Natural stones worth it?

[fortheloveofmoar]

Just curious what the forum thinks about the benefits or preference for natural stones > synthetic stones.

I currently have the Naniwa Pro - 400, 1k, 2k, and Snow White (8k)
Cerax 400 and 1k

 

[Gshep91]

You’re opening a very large can of worms with this one

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

oh boy.....

 

[user 16756]

oh boy.....

can you elaborate what your intended use is (sharpening vs polishing vs both), budget, what kind of knives are we talking about, what grit range youre looking at?

otherwise just buy an aizu second hand and sell it if you dont like it. they move really fast around here and are pretty consistent.

 

[mockit]

If you don’t plan to polish then no, they are not worth it imo. I second the used Aizu recommendation or get a suitable coticule from Ardennes.

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

Uhh I guess both? Sharpening and Polishing. Well probably - more sharpening than polishing.

Budget - nothing specific just starting to dip my toes.

Knives - some high end and mid-range - Xerces, Marko, TF, Kipp. I don't really plan to do very much polishing I hope to probably just keep the edges up at this point.

Grit range- again just dipping my toes and want to expand my knowledge.

Noted on the Aizu. thank you.

 

[OkayMode]

Just checking in before the 17 pages of responses including at least one heated argument by this time tomorrow

 

[Rangen]

That entirely depends on you. Try a natural stone (aizu is a good choice), and see how you feel about it.

I don't polish. I may never polish. But I love sharpening on JNats.

 

[Carbonara]

oh boy here we go...

I prefer to sharpen on jnats and I believe my overall results have been better. This might be attributable to confirmation bias, placebo effect, or the simple fact that jnats are superior

On a serious note, I'll let the more experience members here share their experience.

 

[mockit]

Fwiw…I was standing above this rabbit hole months ago. The problem is that I like rubbing steel on rocks so naturals were an easy plunge lol. They are beautiful and behave differently depending on the stone. Aizu or coticule and you’ll get a taste of a really nice natural edge. Can also just go right up to a softer/finer stone if you want to play with polishing a bit. Would 100% recommend discussing with @AtelierTennenToishi.

 

[mengwong]

If you can get a sharp edge off any stone, the only logical thing to do is get a natural stone that smells really really good to your nose.

 

[mockit]

This is true. I love the way my Aizu smells. Ocean x stone quarry / limestone type of thing. Makes my kitchen smell great.

 

[user 16756]

oh boy here we go...

I prefer to sharpen on jnats and I believe my overall results have been better. This might be attributable to confirmation bias, placebo effect, or the simple fact that jnats are superior

On a serious note, I'll let the more experience members here share their experience.

I also have historically gotten superior results off JNats.

My speculation is that the secret to sharpening good is a clean apex, which means thorough deburring, and the harder stones make it easier for me to come off them with less burr, which makes it easier for my deburring to make a clean apex.

My favorite edge stones are all quite hard. At least 4/5 by most folks' measures. Okudo and harder Ohira suitas, Nakayama tomaes and various random asagis.

 

[Heckel7302]

I love my natural stones. They are worth it to me, but I'm another one that really likes rubbing metal on rocks. For most people, I think not worth it, especially for edges. While I do think they make a superior edge, it's subtle. Certainly the degree to which edges are nicer is nowhere near the degree of higher cost. i.e. a good synth is $50-$60. A good jnat is $250+. The edges are not 5 times better.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/why-all-the-hype-on-jnat.51591/#post-783254
If one is sharpening, naturals only make sense for blades that can take advantage of that.
All the finesse jnats have will be lost if you use it to sharpen a blade that can't keep an acute edge for long.

I enjoy jnats for several reasons:

1. toothier yet refined edges;
2. less clogging, in general;
3. less dishing, in general;
4. tend to raise a smaller burr (easier deburring - more life out of the blade);
5. they usually are S&G;
6. better at polishing.

 

[KasumiJLA]

Natural stones are super fun to work with, both for polishing and sharpening. But like anything, you need a good technique to be able to appreciate them, especially for polishing. Grab yourself a binsui, they are fairly cheap and you can get a taste of what you can achieve with naturals. Binsui are more or less in the ~2k grit.

I do sharpen my knives (and my customers knives) with them too. I have to admit that there's a little something, a toothy things that I really like. It will also depends on the stone you use. I have a nice okudo Ao renge suita that can make a wonderful cutting edge. But I have other suita that doesn't do well. It depends on the hardness and fineness of the grain.

Buying stones can quickly become a monetary problem, put yourself a limit for your wallet before buying them. You don't need something fancy to start!

But yeah. The smell, the beauty of the stone, the fact that it's organic, the fun side of learning about the strata, the mines and the regions... these are all positive points in my opinion.

 

[milangravier]

Natural stones, doesn't mean necessarily jnats. Even if you can get quite cheap jnat (if you get small ones or odd shapes), you can get even lesser expensive natural stones, maybe around you ? arkansas, coticule, but maybe some sandstone around you (i tried it and surely not amazing stones but it was fun) ?
They will be slower than most synthetic, they will be more expensive (jnats), they can be not consistent. But the feel for sharpening or polishing is really above synths. For polishing they really give a finish than no synthetic can give you, like a scratchless finish on the steel for exemple (there is scratches but they are blend by the effect of the natural stone). For sharpening... it's not as spectacular I would say, still the feel is better than synths and you can get some really great edges with good refinement and still some teeth to it.
Aizu are great but they are not that easy to get or cheap now. Less famous, natsuya (coarser than aizu generally), tajima, binsui yeah (coarser than aizu too) or some odd or small shape awasedo can be a way to try jnat. Coticule or belgium blue can also be a way if you're not specifically interested in jnats, they are really great naturals stones, especially for sharpening. Arkansas too but I know nothing about them.

 

[jedy617]

Yeah I really like the edges I get from my coti

 

[ethompson]

 

[Homechef]

Yeah I really like the edges I get from my coti

+1 for coti's - after synthetics only, a Belgian Blue Whetstone with Coticule top gave me a feeling similar to that first time you tried a j-knife. No paper towel is safe anymore. BBW are fairly consistent as well and can be sourced on ebay for less than $200.


Edit: should add - thanks @cotedupy for introducing most of us to BBWs and probably causing a run on the secondary market for a couple months

 

[dragjp]

For fun and fancy results in polishing I'd say jnats, otherwise they're not faster or cheaper or more consistant than synth.

 

[ReiHamono]

If I didn’t polish I wouldn’t have any natural stones at all. I use them for asthetic, but my uchigamori and nakayama tomae leave a really amazing edge.

 

[stringer]

I dislike very fine synthetic edges because they cut through stuff without you feeling anything. A lack of tactile sensation. And then they tend to stick in the cutting board. Natural edges can be toothy but quite fine at the same time without grabbing the board as much. They are generally less finicky for deburring.

If you are natural stone curious in the US I recommend trying a soft Arkansas, a vintage Buck washita, or a vintage Smith's Tri-Hone. Look for one with a wood base and a fine stone that is the color of pale sand. Should be pretty cheap and they make great touch-up and deburring stones for simple steels.

 

[captaincaed]

Yes.

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

Yes.

Man of few words, I like it

 

[bjmsharp]

My wallet keeps telling me no but my heart keeps telling me yes

 

[captaincaed]

If you're curious, a high quality natural stone can be had for the same price as a high quality synthetic.

Washita and Belgian Blues are easy entries to.see if they're you're flavor. They both leave a good "kitchen edge".

The former is much harder, glassier. Good for edges, not for polishing. Nearly Impossible to gouge.

The latter is much softer, muddier, good for edges and early polishing steps.

Washita take a bit of hunting, but if you're quick this one is available. Belgian blues are readily available from many fine retailers or generous members (if you post a WTB ad.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3349976686...udCvMgeSKe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[Nemo]

I wouldn't call my BBW soft but it produces great edges and is a decent polisher if youraise a bit of mud, champfer the edges and use gentle pressure.

A pretty affordable natural, to boot.

 

[DanielC]

Don't do it. Leave while you can!

 

[user 16756]

given the knives the OP has, I think it's more advisable just to acquire something in the top rung.

for me that means JNats personally, given that a coticule is the only stone I've tried that isn't a JNat that I think gives edges that good, but you can polish with JNats. I dunno either is fine I guess.

am I suggesting OP go out and drop 2 grand on a lifetime Ohira? I mean... no probably not given that he needs a few more synths BUT I also wouldn't look at that decision as being as silly as a lot of other folks might. And it's not that hard to find a good stone. I've owned very few duds and it's not for lack of trying.

I feel like we're kind of spoiled by Ed these days since he always has inventory listed with prices. There's a Shobu tomae for less than 500 dollars that clocks in at 1.7kg he's got up that IMO would be a perfect first stone.