Need for Nagura?

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Genghis_F

Often wrong but never in doubt
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As if a sharp knife isn’t enough, now it’s got to be pretty…
I’ve picked up a few Jnats and started playing with polishing. Do I really need a “grit” consistent nagura to raise a slurry or can I just used the fake freebie that’s thrown in with some stones?
Please school me! Just looking for ways to burn my paycheck

TIA
 
I don't find them necessary at all. If I want to force a slurry I use an Atoma 99% of the time. Usually I don't. I'll use a 140 Atoma to scratch up the surface a bit, wash off the stone, then go to town. A stone prepped like that releases grit more readily and you have a decent slurry going pretty quick.
 
I don't find them necessary at all. If I want to force a slurry I use an Atoma 99% of the time. Usually I don't. I'll use a 140 Atoma to scratch up the surface a bit, wash off the stone, then go to town. A stone prepped like that releases grit more readily and you have a decent slurry going pretty quick.
I usually just hit it with the synthetic nagura if I’m going for a mud bath, but I see there are different fineness level natural naguras sold, just wondering if they’re needed
 
Funny enough I was just thinking about this today, and thinking of asking for nagura recommendations. For harder stones, usually they do not like to self slurry too much, so a nagura is very helpful, but I too have just been using an atoma 140. I think the only advantage you would get to a nagura is you would eat up less of your precious stone compared to a coarse diamond. Also I know there are different nagura of course, I would assume if you have very hard stones you will need an even harder nagura, to make sure the stone is wearing away, not so much the nagura
 
You certainly create different effects depending on what nagura you’re using when polishing. I use mine to condition the surface of the stone and then wash off the mud when starting that progression, and can use it later to raise a slurry if desired.

I haven’t found much of a benefit to using a nagura versus my Atoma when sharpening.
 
You certainly create different effects depending on what nagura you’re using when polishing. I use mine to condition the surface of the stone and then wash off the mud when starting that progression, and can use it later to raise a slurry if desired.

I haven’t found much of a benefit to using a nagura versus my Atoma when sharpening.
So the nagura can affect what kinda of polish you get?
Or is it raising a slurry so you can use less pressure?
If so the do different naguras give different affects?
 
So the nagura can affect what kinda of polish you get?
Or is it raising a slurry so you can use less pressure?
If so the do different naguras give different affects?
To an extent yeah - I have a rougher synthetic one with I use for lower grit synthetic stones and a harder natural one for finer synths and Jnats.

I found that if I used the synthetic nagura on my harder and finer stones, the slurry that it raised would be comprised more from the nagura than the stone, and the grit it released would scratch the blade.

I use a Morihei natural nagura - nothing fancy but it seems to work quite well for me so far. I’m a novice too though.
 
I use nagura. Mostly because my diamond plate is a mess from coarse synthetic stones, and you kinda get to choose your own adventure with nagura.

When polishing, you can lean a stone’s finish towards more mirror or more kasumi, or even add acidity to apply some etch. I find some harder stones either get scratched up or drop chunks with the atoma (a me issue im sure).

The other thing is changing the behaviour of the stone. Using a tsushima nagura will make almost any stone I have way more user friendly, while using an aizu nagura (mine is pretty coarse) will give me some grittyness/feedback and an edge with more bite. Doing so on a finer stone gives very nice results for kitchen use.

I don’t have a ton but having some options is nice. I really like a super hard super fine one for more pure base stone mud.
A0B0F3BF-3ECA-4E09-ABC0-56A891A41812.jpeg


Tl;dr - my atoma is too dirty to use for jnats 🤣
 
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I use nagura. Mostly because my diamond plate is a mess from coarse synthetic stones, and you kinda get to choose what your own adventure with nagura.

When polishing, you can lean a stone’s finish towards more mirror or more kasumi, or even add acidity to apply some etch. I find some harder stones either get scratched up or drop chunks with the atoma (a me issue im sure).

The other thing is changing the behaviour of the stone. Using a tsushima nagura will make almost any stone I have way more user friendly, while using an aizu nagura (mine is pretty coarse) will give me some grittyness/feedback and an edge with more bite. Doing so on a finer stone gives very nice results for kitchen use.

I don’t have a ton but having some options is nice. I really like a super hard super fine one for more pure base stone mud. View attachment 255851

Tl;dr - my atoma is too dirty to use for jnats 🤣
Guess I’m buying naguras now
😆
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Pie
I so far never noticed diamond particles from the Atoma 140 coming off. As for the synthetic 600 nagura Naniwa used to deliver with the Choseras, there are safe above... 600. For lower grits it doesn't matter. I've used both with a Naniwa Junpaku 8k and a Shapton Pro 12k.
 
Hidden bonus: combining smells. Aizu tatami mat x aoto wet forest is the scent of the gods.
bottle it up. I'd buy that.

I agree with the tsushima. I'll use it to dress a stone after Atoma for harder stones and I'll have less grabbing, coarse large particles, and kicked-off diamonds. A new 400 and 1200 atoma drop so many diamond particles and sometimes they get embedded in the stone and I won't get them out with just a rinse. I just got an NL-8 lapping plate and that one is the only diamond plate that I can use a slurry off as it doesn't drop diamonds. I don't have any true tomo nagura but I haven't found my tomo'ish' nagura very useful.
 
A Nagura, by its name, is a dressing stone. One may speculate that the primary intention was indeed to condition and prepare the surface of the stone prior to using it. Using it to create slurry may just have been a neat side effect.

Let‘s think in three categorie:

  • Mikawa Nagura (as a stand in for all the natural, true Naguras)
  • Synthetic Nagura
  • Diamond plates

Nagura as dressing stone:

As already mentioned, depending on the condition of the surface of the stone (rough, smooth, glossy, glazed over) it will behave differently.

In general, if a stone has a rough surface, it is more likely to release slurry and work faster, but may leave a more contrasty and less refined finish.

A dressing stone will have an impact on the surface roughness of the stone. Rough, synthetic dressing stones like the Naniwa Chosera Nagura will leave a rough surface. Just rub it on a stone, hold the stone to the light and see the scratches on it. So this particular “Nagura” is good for creating an aggressive surface and does a good job at opening up glazed over (I.e. clogged) stones.

In that sense, however, a diamond plate will do the exact same job. A rough Atoma, say 140, will create an aggressive surface. A medium Atoma like the 400 will leave a happy medium. A fine Atoma like the 1.2k will create a very glossy and smooth finish on the stone.

Nagura to raise a slurry:

I never really understood the appeal of using a Nagura stone to raise a slurry on another stone unless it was a Tomo Nagura.
A Tomo Nagura is a small piece of the same stone you’re raising a slurry on. This will ensure the Slurry does not get mixed and behaves differently than the base stone. That’s the ideal solution but hardly ever possible.

I can not recommend synthetic Nagura to raise a slurry on a JNAT at all. You will have mixed particles and end up with something completely different than what you wanted.

Instead, I would again recommend the diamond plate. These will give you “pure” slurry while simultaneously conditioning the surface corresponding to the chosen grit of the Atoma. Personally, I recommend buying one Atoma plate and sticking a replacement Atoma sheet to its backside. This makes for a handy coarse/fine Atoma combination plate. I never had any issue with rogue diamonds and use a 400 / 1.2k combination

Natural Nagura types:

Nagura come in four main types. There are grit ranges associated with these Nagura types, but in my experience the difference is negligible and I would argue you only need one of these for all your Nagura needs. My recommendation is to get a nice Tenjou or Mejiro and call it a day, if you're looking for a natural Nagura.

ボタン Botan

天上 Tenjou

目白 Mejiro

コマ Koma 

And lastly the Tsushima. A different type of stone, sometimes mined from the bottom of the ocean.

When do you want a stone that is conditioned to be a little coarse?

Depending on your stone and routine, starting the session with an aggressive "version" of your stone can speed up the process.
You will get a hazy and scratch-less (or less scratchy) finish faster and the process generally is a little nicer.

When do you want a stone that is conditioned to be smooth and glossy?

A stone with a glossy, smooth surface will cut slower and generally leave a brighter, more refined finish. This technique sets you up for all sorts of activities, such as "burnishing". A glossy surface will release less slurry and generally help revealing more details while toning down the contrast, if this is what you are after.
 
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I so far never noticed diamond particles from the Atoma 140 coming off.
Only needs to happen once when you’re deep into your polishing progression to ruin your day/week - ask me how I know.
 
A Nagura, by its name, is a dressing stone. One may speculate that the primary intention was indeed to condition and prepare the surface of the stone prior to using it. Using it to create slurry may just have been a neat side effect.

Let‘s think in three categorie:

  • Mikawa Nagura (as a stand in for all the natural, true Naguras)
  • Synthetic Nagura
  • Diamond plates

Nagura as dressing stone:

As already mentioned, depending on the condition of the surface of the stone (rough, smooth, glossy, glazed over) it will behave differently.

In general, if a stone has a rough surface, it is more likely to release slurry and work faster, but may leave a more contrasty and less refined finish.

A dressing stone will have an impact on the surface roughness of the stone. Rough, synthetic dressing stones like the Naniwa Chosera Nagura will leave a rough surface. Just rub it on a stone, hold the stone to the light and see the scratches on it. So this particular “Nagura” is good for creating an aggressive surface and does a good job at opening up glazed over (I.e. clogged) stones.

In that sense, however, a diamond plate will do the exact same job. A rough Atoma, say 140, will create an aggressive surface. A medium Atoma like the 400 will leave a happy medium. A fine Atoma like the 1.2k will create a very glossy and smooth finish on the stone.

Nagura to raise a slurry:

I never really understood the appeal of using a Nagura stone to raise a slurry on another stone unless it was a Tomo Nagura.
A Tomo Nagura is a small piece of the same stone you’re raising a slurry on. This will ensure the Slurry does not get mixed and behaves differently than the base stone. That’s the ideal solution but hardly ever possible.

I can not recommend synthetic Nagura to raise a slurry on a JNAT at all. You will have mixed particles and end up with something completely different than what you wanted.

Instead, I would again recommend the diamond plate. These will give you “pure” slurry while simultaneously conditioning the surface corresponding to the chosen grit of the Atoma. Personally, I recommend buying one Atoma plate and sticking a replacement Atoma sheet to its backside. This makes for a handy coarse/fine Atoma combination plate. I never had any issue with rogue diamonds and use a 400 / 1.2k combination

Natural Nagura types:

Nagura come in four main types. There are grit ranges associated with these Nagura types, but in my experience the difference is negligible and I would argue you only need one of these for all your Nagura needs. My recommendation is to get a nice Tenjou or Mejiro and call it a day, if you're looking for a natural Nagura.

ボタン Botan

天上 Tenjou

目白 Mejiro

コマ Koma 

And lastly the Tsushima. A different type of stone, sometimes mined from the bottom of the ocean.

When do you want a stone that is conditioned to be a little coarse?

Depending on your stone and routine, starting the session with an aggressive "version" of your stone can speed up the process.
You will get a hazy and scratch-less (or less scratchy) finish faster and the process generally is a little nicer.

When do you want a stone that is conditioned to be smooth and glossy?

A stone with a glossy, smooth surface will cut slower and generally leave a brighter, more refined finish. This technique sets you up for all sorts of activities, such as "burnishing". A glossy surface will release less slurry and generally help revealing more details while toning down the contrast, if this is what you are after.
Thanks for the detailed discussion and advice
I’ll definitely stop using the synth nagura
Some of my jnats came with tomo nagura so will use those instead
 
Thanks for the detailed discussion and advice
I’ll definitely stop using the synth nagura
Some of my jnats came with tomo nagura so will use those instead
Synth Nagura have their place in this world, don’t get me wrong. Most of the time, for me, this place is in their box, though. ;)

Only needs to happen once when you’re deep into your polishing progression to ruin your day/week - ask me how I know.

That is true. I am glad to report it hasn’t happened to me in about 8 years of use (I confirmed the purchase was may 2015)
 
Did it happen with an Atoma?
Yep, it was a new Atoma - it seems they are more likely to shed when they are breaking in, I’ve not had any problems since the one time.

Synth Nagura have their place in this world, don’t get me wrong. Most of the time, for me, this place is in their box, though. ;)
I sometimes use my synth nagura to raise a slurry for sharpening the edge to speed things up without excessively wearing out my Atoma or stone.
 
Naguras you just have to try out individually and see how they perform. There are general groupings of naguras but in the end, they are all natural and they vary, naturally. This is all before incorporating the variable that is the base stone which has just as many variables to consider as well.

One of my favorite combos for knives is finishing with koma nagura on a fine razor hone. The koma is more coarse and aggressive than the hone so it leaves some bite. For a little more bite I switch to a slightly more aggressive suita.

If I had a botan that would provide more bite and I’ll probably get one someday. I do have a Tsushima nagura but the one I have is uncharacteristically fine and hard. I wish I had a softer one because these do produce a real nice knife edge.

Tomo’s, specifically razor tomo’s, are just too fine for knife work IMHO. They are a lot of fun with razor honing though. A fine tomo might work well in combination with a coarser jnat or other natural. I’ve put a variety of naguras on a washita to see how the combo responds.

King makes a soft 8000 grit synthetic nagura for about $12. This is a good place to dip your toe in the water with not a lot of commitment. I do recommend this one for a variety of touch up work too.
 
As if a sharp knife isn’t enough, now it’s got to be pretty…
I’ve picked up a few Jnats and started playing with polishing. Do I really need a “grit” consistent nagura to raise a slurry or can I just used the fake freebie that’s thrown in with some stones?
Please school me! Just looking for ways to burn my paycheck

TIA
As a complete noob with very limited experience I can say they make a difference. Some Nagura’s give a complete different finish but again this might be just my technique
 
I have quite a lot of nagura and various slurry stones, it's the one area of jnats that I do know a bit about. Which is mostly because of razor honing, where you use very fine, slow and usually hard stones to finish on. The use of nagura slurry gradually diluted will speed the process up no end.

But having acquired various examples for that purpose has opened my eyes to their use for knives, especially for polishing. So below are some thoughts concerning nagura as slurry stones, as opposed to flattening or surface dressing stones, for the latter I, like many people here, just use atomas.

---

Here's a picture of some of my most used nagura which I'll talk a little bit about below.

IMG-9409 (1).jpg


Top: Chu, Gujo, Mikawa Asano Koma, Nakayama
Bottom: Tam O'Shanter, Blue Thuringian, Coticule Les Latneuses

---

Japanese Nagura

Some things to note:

1.) There are certain types of stone that historically have been specifically quarried and used as nagura, but of course you can use any type of stone as a nagura, part of the fun is experimentation. Softer suita work well, I've broken stones up that had too much toxicity to make nagura, where you can work around or get rid of the toxic lines. The Nakayama is my pic above was sold as nagura simply because of the size, though it's also realtively soft and coarse for the mine...

2.) Ideally you want a nagura to be softer and slightly coarser than the base stone. If it's harder you'll just raise slurry off the base stone, if it's finer then the effect of the nagura slurry will get lost. But many nagura aren't actually that soft initially...

3.) This is important, and often not commented on or realised: ***Traditional Japanese nagura are soaking stones*** Tsushima, Chu, Gujo, Mikawa - they're all soaking stones, anything from 10 mins to about an hour will soften them up and make them better in use.

4.) These types of traditional nagura are katana polishing stones. It's why Mikawa benchstones are so frighteningly expensive, and why Asano have specific stamps for sword grade pieces. Small versions work very well for in-hand polishing on their own, as well as for slurry on other good polishing benchstones.


Tomo nagura - I don't often use tomo tbh. There's no real advantage to be gained over just using an atoma, except perhaps preserving the life of the base stone. If a stone comes with one, then by all means use it. But I'm not really in the game of cutting bits off the end of a stone in order to have a tomo (I have done, just rarely).

Chu nagura - Relatively light, porous, fast, and friable. The grit range overlaps with the coarser end of Mikawa. My stone above is quite a coarse and fast version. Would work very well as a knife edge sharpening stone too.

Gujo nagura - I wasn't aware of Gujo nagura until earlier this year noting a constant stream of high praise from @gbupp, and it turned out I actually had one already. The stone in my picture above was my favourite nagura, but I had mistaken it for an exceptionally good piece of Mikawa, an easy thing to do as they can look and act very similarly. This is a flat out excellent polishing stone, and I would pay handsome money for a bench size version. As fine and fast as koma, but softer.

Mikawa nagura - The famous ones, and rightly so - Mikawa nagura are very good indeed. There are eight recognized types; Atsu, Ban, Yae Botan, Botan, Tenjyou 1, Tenjyou 2, Meijiro, Koma. I've nicked that list of Keith's website and tried to order it from coarsest to finest, though there is some overlap: Meijiro can be finer than Koma for instance. I also don't have all of those layers, only four I think. Mikawa can be exceptionally good for polishing though they can be quite hard, I tend to soak for at least half an hour before use. Perhaps someone like @Steve56 might be able to offer some further thoughts here as he knows these stones very well, and not just in the context of razor use.

[NB. I don't have and have never used Tsushima nagura, so I'm leaving out of my list above, others have talked about them anyway. I understand they are coarser than the above, and would be used as the first stone in a nagura polishing progression.]

---

Non Japanese Nagura / Slurry Stones

Many types of traditional western whetstones are quite fine and relatively non-friable in comparison to a lot of jnats. There aren't many types that work particularly well as nagura, imo. Some that I do like:


Tam O'Shanter - Of all the other stones in all the world Tams are most like jnats to my mind. They're at the finer end of the natural stone spectrum, relatively slow, and for a lot of their history they were largely used as polishing stones. On their own they're rarely as good as a good Japanese polisher, but as nagura they work extremely well.

Thuringians - Thuris are extremely fine-grained stones, but softer than almost anything else at a comparable grit level. If you're looking for high level, mirror type polish then a Thuringian slurry stone on a hard and difficult-to-use awasedo is a very good option. The one in the picture is actually an Escher, but any Thuri will do.

Coticules and Belgian Blue - The hardness, speed, and grit level of yellow coticule varies as much as the whole world of jnats, so it's difficult to make generalizations here. But take my word for it - cotis and bbw can be quite exceptional nagura. The slurry stone in my picture above is from the Les Latneuses vein which to generalize in comparison to other cotis is; fairly soft, very very fast, and medium grit.

---

Synthetic Nagura

Another thing I don't often do, but it can work. The slight issue with synthetic nagura is that much of the interest in using nagura comes from how the abrasives in the slurry round out (or 'break down' as people often call it). The Aluminium Oxide and Silicon Carbide used in synthetic stones is far harder than the Silicon Dioxide in natural stones, so it doesn't do the rounding out / breaking down in quite the same way.

Remember that you don't necessarily need to use a small stone in order to raise slurry, you can very well just rub one benchstone on another.

I wouldn't use synthetic slurry on a natural stone, or vice versa.
 
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Mikawa nagura - The famous ones. And rightly so - Mikawa nagura are very good indeed. There are eight recognized types of Mikawa nagura; Atsu, Ban, Yae Botan, Botan, Tenjyou 1, Tenjyou 2, Meijiro, Koma. I've nicked that list of Keith's website and tried to order it from coarsest to finest, though there is some overlap: Meijiro can finer than Koma for instance. I also don't have all of those layers, only four I think. Mikawa can be exceptionally good for polishing though they can be quite hard, I tend to soak for at least half an hour before use. Perhaps someone like @Steve56 might be able to offer some further thoughts here as he knows these stones very well, and not just in the context of razor use.

Mikawa were originally used as metal polishing stones, along with I suppose, both Gifu and Gujyo nagura. Gujyo is from Gifu province, but apparently not exactly the same stone as Gifu nagura. In the 1960s, Iwasaki promoted the use of Mikawa nagura as a source of cheaper coarser grits for barbers, as many rural barbers could probably not afford or justify multiple stones.

Many people on KKF probably know that metal polishing, at least at a high level, requires better and purer stones than sharpening. Even a straight razor, which is probably the most demanding edge because of the edge feeling on your face (a pot roast never complains!) can have a few stray scratches, your concours sword polish cannot.

Most of the currently offered Asano stamped stones seem to be rather ordinary to me unless the description includes the words something like ‘a rare and high quality stone’. They can also be unusably hard. When Alex Gilmore visited Sakimoto, he bought a good bit of Mikawa both striped and white, except for koma which he did not have at the time of the visit. I bought 6, 3 each of striped and white, and all were unremarkable. They just did not have much grit in them compared to good vintage stones. My current MO is to buy lots of ungraded/unstamped vintage stone and grade them myself, which is not difficult to do. If your polishing metal you have to grade them yourself anyway regardless of the vintage or stamps. The vintage stones seem to have more grit in them. Razor honers seem to have more difficulty with the idea of grading your own stones, but from looking at the polishing images here on KKF, I think knife folks are already familiar with what needs to be done.

The first image is of a lot of unmarked nagura that I bought, and this is the way that I like to source my shiro nagura these days. Bonus stones are the two 200g cubical stones in the top row which turned out to be very fine examples of Gujyo (second image), and there were also two small shaped stones (third image) of very high quality. I can’t complain about 400g of super fine Gujyo. There is also a 200g piece of either Mejiro or Koma that I like to use on a Suehiro Kouseki 10k to refresh worn razor edges prior to the final finish. A little shiro nagura slurry can help keep your synths from loading up, give it a whirl. Also in the lot was a nice piece of Yae Botan, which makes a very nice ji/ha line.

Fourth image, a 295g piece of vintage koma, trimmed with a hatchet/adze-like tool that was commom in the ealy days. It’s very pure, very fast, and typical of what they wanted in the ‘olden days’. It’s a great prefinisher for razors or for polishing metal.

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IMG_8871.jpeg
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If you have a big bench stone it's easy making a tomo nagura. I used a hack saw to make some by cutting a small piece off.
If you can, buy a smaller similar stone and rub them together to get a pure slurry. I don't think I'll get a Diamond plate.
For me pure slurry is the way yto go.
 
You can also use one of your jnats to slurry another jnat. Many nagura are just small pieces of jnat after all. See what it does.
I dont use diamond plates to raise slurry, since one loose diamond can mess up a lot of work.
 
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