Need gyuto (+possibly petty and cutting board) suggestions

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Cifer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2024
Messages
63
Reaction score
37
Location
Germany
Update 2:
Increased budget, cleaned up the text and removed all the text related to the petty knife, sharpening stone and cutting board. I's better to make a separate thread for that.

LOCATION
What country are you in?

Germany

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
right-handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
suitable for pinch grip (not too intrusive or curved), doesn't matter if leaning Western or Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
at least 210 mm, with around 225 to 230 mm being ideal

Just give me all of your recommendations in the 210-240 mm range since the official measurements are often wildly inaccurate.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
ideally at least stainless clad, but I'm okay with carbon as well if it's a relatively low-maintenance type and doesn't colour food too much

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
200 for the gyuto

I would like to stay as close to 100 euros as possible, but I figured I shouldn't cut off the price range at 150 in case there is much more value to be had closer to the 200 euro range.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

at home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
cutting vegetables only (slicing, chopping, mincing, anything)
Attach files

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
none

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
slicing or push, I don't exactly understand the definitions in the link. I do either the typical santoku motion (down + forward) or sometimes - if a knife encourages it - a type of rocking with almost all of the motion being horizontal

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Thin cutter that glides through onions, carrots and cabbage (and similar) but isn't prone to chipping. Food release should be as good as possible within this price range and for this type of knife. At least food shouldn't get suctioned to the blade and come off relatively easily with the fingers if it sticks.

Better aesthetics
no crazy patterns (elaborate damascus patterns, etc)

Comfort
handle shouldn't be extremely short or thin

Ease of Use and Care
ideally easy to care for, but if a relatively low-maintenance carbon knife ends up being the best option I wouldn't mind either; it should ideally be easy to maintain and sharpen

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
as good as possible, but it's not high on the priority list

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?

edge-friendly HDPE cutting board in one house, wood cutting board in the other. it would be ideal if I could use the knife on the HDPE board until I decide on a good wooden board to replace it with

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
yes. Shapton Pro1000, will see what else I need or want depending on the knife

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives?

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes, as necessary.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
If you suggest knives from shops outside of the EU then consider that there will be a 19% import tax on both the value of the knife and the shipping (which I presume will be 20+ euros), plus a customs fee on top of that if the knife costs more than 150 euros (about 150 dollars). That should be your basis for judging whether it is still a good value.

Thanks a lot!
 
Last edited:
Since I don't know what's available to you inside Europe, I'm going to stand on the recommendation I gave you in the other thread:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/jck-original-kagayaki

Again, I wouldn't opt for the ES finish as it will make the edge somewhat fragile.

A Shapton Pro 2000 and some cardboard for a strop will give you nice edges. I wouldn't bother taking a German-style knife past the 1k. They just don't hold higher edges well.

I have used multiple edge and end grain boards and don't see enough difference to warrant all the admonishments of edge grain and I do just fine with my large Boos edge grain.
 
Last edited:
The ES option is interesting if it's the first asymmetric blade someone gets. It gives a good idea about how to sharpen it. As most factory edges though, it's weak. Apart from that a slightly more conservative one can be considered.

I should clarify. I really, really like the ES edge on my Basic santoku. But in another thread the OP expressed a lot of concern about having a fragile edge so that's why I said that in this case I'd not opt for it.

But then again, to your point, mine was only really fragile until I sharpened it myself.
 
For cutting board:

I'm not sure if this will be too big for you but it's what I have. Great bang for buck for a teak endgrain board. You'll see some internet rumblings about high silica content in teak than maple/walnut/cherry. In my home use, I don't notice any difference in edge retention when I compared it to a cherry board of mine over a month. The abundance of natural oils in teak are also a bonus in my eyes as it needs oiling less often than other woods and is more resistant to warping, though you still want to be at least 1.5 inches thick on any endgrain board.

Not sure where you can buy them in Germany but here are 2 links. It's model 332, 24"x18"x1.5"

https://www.cuttingboard.com/teakhaus-332-teak-end-grain-board-24-x-18-x-1-5/

https://www.amazon.com/Teakhaus-But...719610950&sprefix=teakhaus+332,aps,135&sr=8-3


This is a full size cleaver and a 256 mm gyuto on mine, respectively. Makes a great workspace.

20240226_180737.jpg

20231202_155109.jpg
 
Really?? That is a shame. I woulda hoped the one good thing about production knives would be consistency.
Recently a member here showed a left-handed version that was similar to what they all used to be. What makes me think that it was hand ground, and that the right-handed aren't any longer. My guess is it has to do with the introduction of CNC machinery. Old ones were nail flexing, had a thickness behind the edge of 0.2mm. Newer ones about the double. A tolerance of 0.1mm seems to be common with CNC. Which would explain why is chosen to stay on the safe side.
 
Mainly cutting vegetables calls for thinner knife imho.
I like these and have the 270mm version which i like so much i was thinking of buying the 240mm as well:
Kanehide bessaku 240mm gyuto
its thin, light,semi stainless and will feel smaller than the given size.
It is a simple handle but if you oil it now and then, it will stay in good shape for long.

If you have huge hands the knife might be too narrow with a heel of 46mm and that handle.

Where are you located in germany?
 
Mainly cutting vegetables calls for thinner knife imho.
I like these and have the 270mm version which i like so much i was thinking of buying the 240mm as well:
Kanehide bessaku 240mm gyuto
its thin, light,semi stainless and will feel smaller than the given size.
It is a simple handle but if you oil it now and then, it will stay in good shape for long.

If you have huge hands the knife might be too narrow with a heel of 46mm and that handle.

Where are you located in germany?
I can't say I'm very impressed by the seller's choil shot of the 240. Will require a lot of work.
Screenshot_20240629_072938_Chrome.jpg
 
Recently a member here showed a left-handed version that was similar to what they all used to be. What makes me think that it was hand ground, and that the right-handed aren't any longer. My guess is it has to do with the introduction of CNC machinery. Old ones were nail flexing, had a thickness behind the edge of 0.2mm. Newer ones about the double. A tolerance of 0.1mm seems to be common with CNC. Which would explain why is chosen to stay on the safe side.
Is it really 0.1mm tolerance for whatever machine's being used to apply the grind? That's ~4 thousandths of an inch and even 10 thousandths behind the edge is flexing and really quite thin.
 
I can't say I'm very impressed by the seller's choil shot of the 240. Will require a lot of work.
Thanks for catching that.
Seems that series has some quality control issues. The photographs of the 270mm's choil looks more like my knife.

Pretty sure though the good people from tetogi would provide a picture from the actual knife.
Choil shots can be misleading also. This one seems to have burrs on the edges of the choil and a general rough finish.
 
So you want something that does is thin behind the edge, does well through hard produce like carrots, has good food release, isn't too delicate, and is also cheap. I think this is what you Germans would also describe as an 'eierlegende wollmilchsau'. ;)

FWIW I think on JCK's knives the ES option is preferable, but mostly because it'll be a bit thinner behind the edge (but still a middle of the road performer, you wouldn't mistake it for something like a Robert Herder or an Ashi Ginga). Delicacy is never really an issue wiht those knives since the steels tend to be quite forgivable at modest hardness.
 
So you want something that does is thin behind the edge, does well through hard produce like carrots, has good food release, isn't too delicate, and is also cheap. I think this is what you Germans would also describe as an 'eierlegende wollmilchsau'. ;)

FWIW I think on JCK's knives the ES option is preferable, but mostly because it'll be a bit thinner behind the edge (but still a middle of the road performer, you wouldn't mistake it for something like a Robert Herder or an Ashi Ginga). Delicacy is never really an issue wiht those knives since the steels tend to be quite forgivable at modest hardness.
I am not expecting it to do all of these things perfectly. As mentioned above (I have clarified it even more after reading your reply), I just want a balance of edge thinness and spine thickness. Something that makes neither cutting carrots especially annoying note has garlic stick to the blade like glued.
 
Is it really 0.1mm tolerance for whatever machine's being used to apply the grind? That's ~4 thousandths of an inch and even 10 thousandths behind the edge is flexing and really quite thin.
That's a very common tolerance, +/- 0.1mm. You don't want to go much below 0,2mm behind the edge for a general purpose knife with a lot of board contact like a gyuto. I wouldn't be surprised if the maker would choose something like 0.35mm with his CNC to be on the safe side.
 
That's a very common tolerance, +/- 0.1mm. You don't want to go much below 0,2mm behind the edge for a general purpose knife with a lot of board contact like a gyuto. I wouldn't be surprised if the maker would choose something like 0.35mm with his CNC to be on the safe side.
This makes sense, yeh, or even quite a lot thicker. 0.35mm is still well within the range of cuts like hell but maybe not flexing on a fingernail.
 
I am not expecting it to do all of these things perfectly. As mentioned above (I have clarified it even more after reading your reply), I just want a balance of edge thinness and spine thickness. Something that makes neither cutting carrots especially annoying note has garlic stick to the blade like glued.
I don't see how thinneth behind the edge, food release and spine thickness are related. It's perfectly possible to have a geometry without wedging AND having a good food release. The most likely to wedge are blades were the face are more or less eachother's image. Food release will depend on the geometry of the right face.
 
Still a poor cutter.
Hmmmmmm. I think we're likely talking about different things. 0.35mm BTE thickness corresponds to a ~0.04mm bevel height at 13dps, right? Most people would call that a micro-bevel. I don't have a Wusthof handy or calipers but this doesn't make sense to me.
 
No, I found 0.78mm
13dps gives an inclusive edge of 26°.
My math is invsin(13/360 * 2pi) * (0.35/2) for DPS. Any thoughts on where we're diverging? Regardless, Wusthof bevels are >1mm in height so neither calculation is appropriate.

Edit: Lol, am dumb. Has been a while since I did much trig. I flipped it and I match to you with the correct math. Still doesn't match to a Wusthof irl 🤷‍♂️ Correct math is (0.35/2) / invsin(13/360 * 2pi) for anybody that wants it.
 
Last edited:
Really? That should still make a teeny tiny little edge bevel at pretty normal angles.

Measurements will vary a ton depending on how and where you measure. With that in mind, here’s a chart I keep of some of my knives. Individually the measurements are of dubious precision and accuracy, but taken a whole they align with how the knives feel on the board and my preference for knives that are similar to Myojin and Yoshikane in cutting feel.

If you look at the Hyde, you can see it measures well at 5 and 10mm, but to me there was a bit more resistance than expected and the .13mm was supporting evidence. So I thinned just a hair right behind the edge, what some might call a relief bevel or even just rounding the shoulders, lowered the edge angle, and that made a huge difference.

IMG_0210.jpeg
 
Measurements will vary a ton depending on how and where you measure. With that in mind, here’s a chart I keep of some of my knives. Individually the measurements are of dubious precision and accuracy, but taken a whole they align with how the knives feel on the board and my preference for knives that are similar to Myojin and Yoshikane in cutting feel.

If you look at the Hyde, you can see it measures well at 5 and 10mm, but to me there was a bit more resistance than expected and the .13mm was supporting evidence. So I thinned just a hair right behind the edge, what some might call a relief bevel or even just rounding the shoulders, lowered the edge angle, and that made a huge difference.

View attachment 331903
Thanks for this. My statement regarding the Wusthof is just that the 0.35mm BTE thickness is not reasonable against the general appearance of the edge bevels from the factory.
 
Anyway back to the OP. I think in the <$200 price range good options are Kyohei Shindo and Takamura. I don’t have any personal experience with them, but see them recommended frequently. I also love my Wakui nakiri, not sure how much those run these days.

Also Peter at Modern Cooking is good people and if he has stuff in his discount junk drawer that he recommends, I’d take a hard look.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top