Next JNAT Help

[ashy2classy]

Hey all. Been in this space for a LONG time but never really got into stones. I've had the same setup for years but recently thought about adding another JNAT to replace one of my stones. What would you recommend given the stones I have below. Thanks in advance!

Suehiro Cerax 400
Suehiro Cerax 800
Suehiro Cerax 3000
Uchigomori JNAT (photos below)

 

[ethompson]

Looks to replace a stone or add something finer / different?

 

[user 16756]

hard-ish finisher IMO.

how much money you got? honestly if you want to save money in the long run just dole out the 1.5-2k for a huge chunk of fast Ohira Suita. my overall favorite stones as a group, great for edges great for polishes. only real downside is cost, but a 2 kilogram hunk of it is a lifetime investment for most folks.

 

[Choppin]

hard-ish finisher IMO.

This. A nice ohira suita or nakayama kiita.

Is this for sharpening only or also polishing?

 

[ahhactive]

I thnink a mikawa would be nice. A mid grit that you can consider a finish in its own right polishing wise. Also leaves a rather toothy edge as well which i love on tomatoes. Price wise they are not as expensive as the ones from kyoto mines.

Ps. Prob need more coarse stone for polishing

 

[ethompson]

If looking for a finisher I’d say a good Okudo that isn’t too hard for knives or a nakayama kiita nashiji would be ideal

 

[ashy2classy]

Thanks for all the replies. I use the Uchi as a finisher now and it leaves a really nice toothy edge. I was hoping to replace one of the Cerax stones but it sounds like JNATs are much finer grit. Shows how much I don't know about the subject.

Is there a way I can consolidate or make my progression more efficient?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks for all the replies. I use the Uchi as a finisher now and it leaves a really nice toothy edge. I was hoping to replace one of the Cerax stones but it sounds like JNATs are much finer grit. Shows how much I don't know about the subject.

Is there a way I can consolidate or make my progression more efficient?

If you're open to something different, a Belgian Blue Whetstone might make you happy. Still a natural stone. Many of us find it leaves a nice toothy edge for it's approximate grit, which many put around 4k.

 

[cotedupy]

In general I'd say you wouldn't want to try to replace low or mid grit synths with a natural stone, especially not a jnat. Because the majority of natural stones at that level are quite slow in comparison to man made equivalents. The only good, easily available, affordable naturals around the 1k or below mark I can think of would be: Soft Arkansas.

And the Cerax 3k is obviously The Perfect Whetstone in the Mind of God, so that's completely irreplaceable whatever way.

In conclusion, like others have said - go higher. Lots of fun to be had further on up!

 

[Rangen]

It is very nearly impossible to make JNats not a rabbit hole, because stones of a given type vary so much. The usual plan is to start spending money, and then spending time with the stones you bought, to see what they are good for.

I have three Ohira Suita stones. One is maybe 3000-4000 grit, and works well for finishing kitchen knives to a typically toothy edge. One is so very fine as to be ridiculous for knives, but very nice as a razor prefinisher. Suitas tend to be fast for their grit, relative to other JNats, and a razor prefinisher that can make microadjustments in geometry while preparing an edge for finishing is a wonderful thing. The other is in between. Buy an Ohira suita, and you will get...something in this range...probably.

I have three Nakayama Kiitas. All are hard, and suitable for razor finishing. Not so much for kitchen knives. But I'm sure there is a lot of variation. I think Nakayama Kiita just means "a yellow stone from the Nakayama mine." So, not very specific.

I have a Chu Nagura, a big yellow stone that is perfect for this application. But I'm told that they are not all alike, and some would not be so perfect.

Unless you are seeking sushi edges, I suggest an Aizu. They vary also, but I have not heard of Aizus that do not make a wonderful toothy edge for a kitchen knife.

For any of these, starting from your 3000 grit edge would be reasonable, though you could go straight from the 800 to an Aizu.

 

[user 16756]

It is very nearly impossible to make JNats not a rabbit hole, because stones of a given type vary so much. The usual plan is to start spending money, and then spending time with the stones you bought, to see what they are good for.

I have three Ohira Suita stones. One is maybe 3000-4000 grit, and works well for finishing kitchen knives to a typically toothy edge. One is so very fine as to be ridiculous for knives, but very nice as a razor prefinisher. Suitas tend to be fast for their grit, relative to other JNats, and a razor prefinisher that can make microadjustments in geometry while preparing an edge for finishing is a wonderful thing. The other is in between. Buy an Ohira suita, and you will get...something in this range...probably.

I have three Nakayama Kiitas. All are hard, and suitable for razor finishing. Not so much for kitchen knives. But I'm sure there is a lot of variation. I think Nakayama Kiita just means "a yellow stone from the Nakayama mine." So, not very specific.

I have a Chu Nagura, a big yellow stone that is perfect for this application. But I'm told that they are not all alike, and some would not be so perfect.

Unless you are seeking sushi edges, I suggest an Aizu. They vary also, but I have not heard of Aizus that do not make a wonderful toothy edge for a kitchen knife.

For any of these, starting from your 3000 grit edge would be reasonable, though you could go straight from the 800 to an Aizu.

while I agree stones have variance, if you buy from someone around here who is both experienced and more in the spirit of helping folks out, it's easier to get what you want.

buying is more a gamble when youre picking up random stones off buyee or ikkyu.

 

[ashy2classy]

Lots of good information. Can someone tell me how the recommendations differ from the Uchi? I don't know the differences between types of JNATs (obviously) and don't know what grit it would be compared to.

 

[Rangen]

An Uchi is a polishing stone, not an edge stone. They are a top stone for polishing, because of the finish they produce. They are awful for edges, slow and vague, as I found out when I tried to use one for that purpose. So, hard to compare, unless you want comparisons for polishing only.

 

[Pie]

Lots of good information. Can someone tell me how the recommendations differ from the Uchi? I don't know the differences between types of JNATs (obviously) and don't know what grit it would be compared to.

Most finishers will give a cleaner edge faster than the uchi. My hard uchi is acceptable but weaker vs a 4-4.5 hardness nakayama on edges, and everything pales in comparison to a little ozuku suita. Means not much right? Stones are judged by speed, fineness and hardness, polishing power.. While a grit rating is an easily understandable translation of abilities, the temperament and character of a stone (and thus the results you can produce) cannot be quantified. The above finishers are around 9 and 6k respectively for keenness, but the edge characteristics are unlike the synthetic equivalents.

This is a tough question because (as it’s been stated as nauseam) that each jnat will be different even if identified with the same names. Try before you buy would be the way in a perfect world, but word of the seller’s gonna be the best we can get. Luckily around here that word is pretty good!

Keep in mind I still know nothing about jnats, I’ve just wandered around in the dark for a couple years rubbing steel on rocks.

 

[dmonterisi]

i agree with those who suggested a solid ohira suita as what you need. honestly, imo, it's the only jnat you need for regular usage. it will replace your cerax 3000. you could go the rest of your life with the cerax 800 > ohira suita. i used to go naniwa 800 > 2000 as my main sharpening progression. now i have a Numata Torato from JNS (a1882 if you want to look it up on the site) > Ohira Suita (a1838 on jns). i have worked with these 2 stones for over 3 years and I think thats more important than variety. having a couple of good stones that you know its more valuable than 15k worth of rocks, imo. i have a feel for how my 2 stones sharpen, based on steel, positioning and hand pressure. i have a naniwa 400 for thinning/bevel setting if i need a deep sharpening. i have a naniwa snow white if i want to play with stupid sharp edges which i never do anymore. i do not do paper towel draw cuts or horizontal cherry tomato paper thin slices, i just want a good functional edge that i can rely on. i know its blasphemy in this section of the forum, but i don't think going too far beyond this level is useful. super keen edges simply don't last beyond 5 mins on the board.

also, the rocks are stupid expensive and there is no true scale as to what you are buying, I relied on Maxsim's scale and it worked out great so i would recommend a stone you can trace back to his scale, but that is just what worked for me.

i also have an uchi that as mentioned is more for polishing but i hate polishing so its gets little use. on single bevels, it's a great way to blend bevels but it doesn't took any edges for me.

I'm traveling a ton for work these (weeks at a time) i'm happy to lend you my suita for a week or so you can try it out during one of my trips. send me a PM if you are interested and we can work out the timing.

 

[Dull_Apex]

As a relative newbie compared to others, I don't see that list of stones in the OP and jump to 'needing' a $2k stone but do agree on a fast suita of some type for use on edges.

My Yaginoshima suita is yellow and being a lighter colour means that I can see the swarf on it quickly which helps with positive associations on buying an expensive rock.

For slurry visuals where you can clearly see that something is happening, Badgertooths video came to mind :

 

[user 16756]

As a relative newbie compared to others, I don't see that list of stones in the OP and jump to 'needing' a $2k stone but do agree on a fast suita of some type for use on edges.

My Yaginoshima suita is yellow and being a lighter colour means that I can see the swarf on it quickly which helps with positive associations on buying an expensive rock.

For slurry visuals where you can clearly see that something is happening, Badgertooths video came to mind :

look mate do you want to quote my post?

what did I actually say?

hard-ish finisher IMO.

how much money you got? honestly if you want to save money in the long run just dole out the 1.5-2k for a huge chunk of fast Ohira Suita. my overall favorite stones as a group, great for edges great for polishes. only real downside is cost, but a 2 kilogram hunk of it is a lifetime investment for most folks.

show me where I or anyone else said or implied the word "need"

 

[naader]

Lots of good information. Can someone tell me how the recommendations differ from the Uchi? I don't know the differences between types of JNATs (obviously) and don't know what grit it would be compared to.

uchi has a lot of range in both hardness and fineness. They shine when used specifically for sword polishing. If you use uchi for knives, you're essentially burning money on a fancy stone name because it's basically just an ohira/mizukihara tenjyou suita often with some sort of markup lol.

Do you polish or just sharpen? 3k synth to any kyoto stone is a bit of a stretch with rare exceptions, typically people have some sort of nakato in between (aizu, numata, aoto etc).

You can't judge a stones performance by the name of the mine and the layer it was mined from. I have 3 ohira suita I can use in a straight progression lol. Gotta have them tested to see if they're what you are looking for.