Recommend Me a Tall Mid-weight (170 to 220g) 240mm

[tostadas]

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA


KNIFE TYPE
Knife Type: Gyuto

Handle Type? Japanese

Knife Length? 240mm, 50mm+ height

Stainless? Carbon or Semi-stainless. Non-Kurouchi finish preferred, but not required.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $200 - $350



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main use tasks? General Purpose. For portioning meats, I will probably still use my heavier knives.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? What improvements do you want from your current knife?
Not replacing, but to supplement what I have. I'd like something in 240mm that doesn't wedge in large onions or carrots. Food separation not too important.

My currently most used knives are:

Heavier Mazaki 240mm (~250g)
CCK 1303 Cleaver (~250g)
Wakui 180mm Santoku (~170g)

Better aesthetics? I'd prefer non-Kurouchi finish, but not a deal breaker. Side question: does anyone make a heart shaped handle besides KnS?

Comfort? Prefer the balance to be ahead of the choil. Either neutral balance at the pinch or slightly blade-heavy.

Ease of Use? n/a

Edge Retention? n/a


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Wood, synthetic, plastic

Do you sharpen your own knives? Yes


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS


I'm looking for something new to try, preferably in the mid-/light-midweight category (170-220g). My only real requirement is that the knife is taller than 50mm. I have not been a fan of shorter ones. The primary feature I am looking for is avoiding wedging in tall, hard produce. I also don't want it TOO thin at the pinch grip, because I dont care for a really thin spine digging into my finger. I've been browsing old posts here, and also inventories of various retailers and found a few things that interest me, but I wanted to hear your feedback on these, or other suggestions I may have missed. Thanks!

Wakui 240 (Wh#2, stainless clad) from EE:
I actually like the profile and grind shape of this one. Lower end of blade height.

Hinoura 240 (Wh#2 or AS):
I read good things about this one. A Sanjo grind, good height. How is the thickness behind the edge on this one?

Masashi 240 (SLD or Wh#2) from Aframes or CC:
Tall blade, sanjo grind, thin. Potentially a bit much flat spot for my liking (the hard "heel stop" due to lack of heel easing annoys me sometimes).

Yoshikane 240 (Ameriki/Kashima/Yoshi in SKD or Wh#2):
On the thin side I believe. I hear great things about the grinds, but my main issue is that they tend to be less than 50mm in height. Does anyone carry a taller Yoshikane?

Y. Tanaka 240 (Wh#1) from JNS:
The very thin profile, and quality of forging really interests me. However, I read horror stories about the Y.Tanakas from JNS.

S. Tanaka 240 (B#2 or Ginsan) from KnS:
The specs on the knife meets most of my criteria. I'm just concerned about some people saying the opposite of the Masashi profile, where there is too little of a flat spot.

TF Nashiji 240:
Lots of fans and haters here. How is the grind/profile/balance on these?

 

[daveb]

I like the Masashi from your list. Can't be too flat.

 

[btbyrd]

For tall hard produce, I'm a fan of the Anryu B#2 hammered gyuto. I've heard others praise it for this purpose. Seems to tick all your boxes.

 

[tostadas]

I like the Masashi from your list. Can't be too flat.

Do you mean to say that the knife is not that flat, or you dont believe that there is such a thing as too flat?

 

[Matus]

I have white 2 Tanaka from JNS - there is no horror story to be told.

 

[juice]

Kick-arse formatting!

 

[tostadas]

I have white 2 Tanaka from JNS - there is no horror story to be told.

I meant White 1 (they dont have a white2 on the site, I corrected the original post). What do you think of the performance?

 

[Matus]

Sorry, I meant white 1 too. The knife is fairly thin, near laser, but still with some food release and distal taper. I really like the profile. It is also very easy to sharpen.

 

[daveb]

Do you mean to say that the knife is not that flat, or you dont believe that there is such a thing as too flat?

I've never used a dead flat clunker. But other than that I like them the flatter the better. I couldn't get right with the height of the Masashi and sold mine - but may buy another at some point.

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Do you mean to say that the knife is not that flat, or you dont believe that there is such a thing as too flat?

there is no such thing as too flat, just gotta change the way you cut

 

[kpham12]

The Masashi from Aframes is about 1/3 flat spot, maybe a bit more, followed by gentle curve. The old torpedo profile used to be about 1/2 flat. And there is a bit of back belly right at the heel, so that dead stop into the cutting board isn’t a problem I’ve had. Great cutter, tough steel. Tip is almost too thin.

I don’t know if CleanCut ships to the US right now, but they have a Shiro Kamo Blue 2, Damascus cladding.

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knife...3-08-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-15-detail
I think his knives are on the lasery side, so it’s a good contrast to a Mazaki. Also tall around 55 mm with some nice taper by looking at the picture of the spine. If they do ship to the US, I think they subtract VAT and add shipping costs so it should come out in the mid to low 200s price wise. I just ordered one in R2 because I wanted to try some powdered stainless.

 

[tostadas]

The Masashi from Aframes is about 1/3 flat spot, maybe a bit more, followed by gentle curve. The old torpedo profile used to be about 1/2 flat. And there is a bit of back belly right at the heel, so that dead stop into the cutting board isn’t a problem I’ve had. Great cutter, tough steel. Tip is almost too thin.

I don’t know if CleanCut ships to the US right now, but they have a Shiro Kamo Blue 2, Damascus cladding.

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knife...3-08-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-15-detail
I think his knives are on the lasery side, so it’s a good contrast to a Mazaki. Also tall around 55 mm with some nice taper by looking at the picture of the spine. If they do ship to the US, I think they subtract VAT and add shipping costs so it should come out in the mid to low 200s price wise. I just ordered one in R2 because I wanted to try some powdered stainless.

Do you have the torpedo version, or the newer one?

 

[kpham12]

Had torpedo version, sold it to a friend who liked the flatness. Then got the newer version. It’s definitely less awkward to use. I did like how unique the torpedo profile was though.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Sakai Kikumori.

 

[bigthyme]

Second the Sakai Kikumori (I have the nashiji). Tons of blade (especially height at 58-60mm) for the cost and has a gentle curve throughout. It’s not too light but also not nowhere near heavy. Superb quality for the price IMHO.

 

[Simme]

Jns kaeru in sld. I still miss the one i gave away

 

[GorillaGrunt]

+1 for Kikumori, Masashi, Shiro Kamo, and S. Tanaka. I have a Mazaki that is tall and light, bought it used though so I don’t know if he’s still making them like that or what retailer it’s from. Loved my Yoshikane, Very narrow blade though, never heard of a tall one but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Same with Hitohira Tanaka (Yoshikazu); amazing blade but not very tall.

 

[Nemo]

If you were happy to try R2, I'd say have a look at Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi. Very tall blade. Moderate curve to the profile.

Tanakas from KnS are pretty curved. Except the new migaki (only available in 210 for now).

All the Yoshis I have seen are pretty short.

My Hinoura (a Hyakuren) is a true middleweight. Not laser thin but certainly not fat behind the edge.

James calls his heart shaped handle a "Hinoura" style. I've never seen one on a Hinoura or any other non-KnsS knife but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The KnS ones are very comforable to my hands FWIW.

You may want to have a look at Sukenari AS. I haven't used the AS but I am familiar with the profile and grind which should suit.

You should also have a look at Gesshin Gengetsu.

I haven't used Kochi but it often gets a LOT of love. I wonder if there is something that I missed that makes it unsuitable here?

 

[NO ChoP!]

Sukenari AS is a wonderful knife. You cant be everything for everyone, but somehow Sukenari is a midweight, with middle thinness, medium height and grind, and somehow works above average in every application. The fit and finish is stellar and the HT lends to non chippy edge that lasts.

 

[Nemo]

Actually, while we are looking at Sukenari AS, why not have a look at their YXR7. This stuff is like SKD to sharpen, has SLD-like edge retention and is tough. It's my go to knife for crusty roasts.

Also, thinking about your balance point requiment- many of these knives balance near the pinch (depending on handle length and weight) but few thinner blades will balance very far forward of the pinch.

 

[Matus]

Second hand stainless-clad Toyama could maybe be found around the upper limit of your budget.

Kochi Migaki from JKI would could fit the bill (sold out at the moment though).

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

My currently most used knives are:

Heavier Mazaki 240mm (~250g)
CCK 1303 Cleaver (~250g)
Wakui 180mm Santoku (~170g)

The primary feature I am looking for is avoiding wedging in tall, hard produce.

Can you be more specific about this requirement in comparison with the knives you have? Are you looking for something wedges less in tall hard produce than a CCK 1303, a Wakui or a Mazaki? By how much?

 

[tostadas]

Thanks for the recommendations so far. I think I'll have to unfortunately pass on the 57mm+ knives, as they will likely not fit in my drawer due to clearance.

My Hinoura (a Hyakuren) is a true middleweight. Not laser thin but certainly not fat behind the edge.

James calls his heart shaped handle a "Hinoura" style. I've never seen one on a Hinoura or any other non-KnsS knife but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The KnS ones are very comforable to my hands FWIW.

You may want to have a look at Sukenari AS. I haven't used the AS but I am familiar with the profile and grind which should suit.

You should also have a look at Gesshin Gengetsu.

I haven't used Kochi but it often gets a LOT of love. I wonder if there is something that I missed that makes it unsuitable here?

I've talked to Jon from JKI about the Kochi and Gengetsu. The Kochi's have my attention. I thought it was interesting that he noted the Kochi has a slight concave grind near the edge. For that reason, I'd put it in the same boat as the Shiro Kamo's for evaluation purposes.

I've read only good things about Hinouras. Do you experience any wedging with it?

Also, thinking about your balance point requiment- many of these knives balance near the pinch (depending on handle length and weight) but few thinner blades will balance very far forward of the pinch.

I was thinking about that too. This is one reason I'm looking towards mid-weight rather than pure lasers. I liked the cutting performance of my Takamura, but found myself desiring a bit more heft to the blade. I suspect the Shiro Kamo knives would be balanced at the pinch rather than ahead of it. When I contacted KnS about their Shinko Seilan, that's what they told me.

Can you be more specific about this requirement in comparison with the knives you have? Are you looking for something wedges less in tall hard produce than a CCK 1303, a Wakui or a Mazaki? By how much?

I didnt mean to say that I had problems with those knives, just listing them as a reference. Definitely would like it to wedge less in large onions than the Mazaki. The CCK is more or less a laser, and the Wakui feels somewhere in the middle (this particular one has a bit more thickness compared to specs I've seen for others). I guess I'd like to try something less wedgy than the Mazaki, but thicker than the CCK at the pinch for comfort. I'm still deciding whether I want something concave at edge like the Shiro Kamo or Kochi.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

I didnt mean to say that I had problems with those knives, just listing them as a reference. Definitely would like it to wedge less in large onions than the Mazaki. The CCK is more or less a laser, and the Wakui feels somewhere in the middle (this particular one has a bit more thickness compared to specs I've seen for others). I guess I'd like to try something less wedgy than the Mazaki, but thicker than the CCK at the pinch for comfort. I'm still deciding whether I want something concave at edge like the Shiro Kamo or Kochi.

I had the Yoshikane SKD Amekiri and the Masashi SLD (newer profile). I also have/had a CCK 1303 and 2 Mazakis. I can say the Amekiri wedges noticeably less than my Mazakis. It barely wedges in anything. Amazing cutter. The Masashi also wedges less than Mazakis but by a smaller margin. Very good cutter. And both Amekiri and Masashi have some heft near the heel that makes them comfortable.

Regarding the profile, my Amekiri was 49.5mm-50mm height but it does have a generous dead flat area (a little over 1/2 of the length). It was so flat that I thought it was overground when I opened the box, but when I put it on the cutting board it was just being flat, no overgrind. If you can live with the profile it is an amazing knife for the buck. The Masashi newer profiler is much taller (55mm+) and it also has about 1/3 flat flat area. Its profile feels more natural to me than the Amekiri and it's also a good knife if the profile works for you.

 

[Nemo]

I've talked to Jon from JKI about the Kochi and Gengetsu. The Kochi's have my attention. I thought it was interesting that he noted the Kochi has a slight concave grind near the edge. For that reason, I'd put it in the same boat as the Shiro Kamo's for evaluation purposes.

I've read only good things about Hinouras. Do you experience any wedging with it?

I was thinking about that too. This is one reason I'm looking towards mid-weight rather than pure lasers. I liked the cutting performance of my Takamura, but found myself desiring a bit more heft to the blade. I suspect the Shiro Kamo knives would be balanced at the pinch rather than ahead of it. When I contacted KnS about their Shinko Seilan, that's what they told me.

I guess I'd like to try something less wedgy than the Mazaki, but thicker than the CCK at the pinch for comfort. I'm still deciding whether I want something concave at edge like the Shiro Kamo or Kochi.

Which Shiro Kamo are you talking about? The Syousin Suminagashi has a convex grind over much of the lower half of the blade, not just near the edge. I don't think that there is any concavity at all. My only Shiro Kamo AS is a sujihiki. I don't know if this translates to a gyuto but the grind on this one is a convex wide bevel. Once again, I cannot detect any concavity. This type of grind respnds best to maintaining the convexity at thinning time. This is done with a kind of modified two sided hamiguriba sharpening, which is much easier to learn than it sounds.

Hinoura is very a nice knife but it's not the perfect knife. Its value is in its steel and its fit and finish. It's not a performance machine, even if its performance is not bad.

Of course the Hinoura wedges. All knives wedge (except perhaps the thinnest of lasers), it's just a matter of degree of wedging and whether it wedges in short or tall food. Note that there is a tradeoff between wedging and food release. Good food release requires grind features such as convexity that take up space in the grind (so can't be present in a laser). The Hinoura hyakuren is a middleweight with a flat (actually slightly concave) wide bevel. It wedges more than a laser, less than a heavyweight. If you want more heft to the blade but no wedging, you may want to look at one of the thick spined thinner/ almost laser knives. This grind is exemplified by the Akifusa (one of my favourite thinner knives unfortunately no longer available) and the Kippington laser. Note that this grind can wedge a little in tall food, although the extreme taper on the Kips means that this is minimised near the tip.

Knife selection is all about choices. You can't have laser like performance in a knife with heft. A thicker spine will wedge in tall foods but not short foods. But will allow a bit of extra food release. A knife with aggressive taper can give you two knives in one. Almost laser like at the tip and beefier at the heel. They do have more heft than a laser... but... this feeling if heft is often reduced because most of the knife's weight is near the heel. Many Sanjo knives are tapered (to a variable degree). While I only have around a dozen Sanjo knives, I have never seen a knife as aggressively tapered as a Kip.

 

[tostadas]

Which Shiro Kamo are you talking about? The Syousin Suminagashi has a convex grind over much of the lower half of the blade, not just near the edge. I don't think that there is any concavity at all. My only Shiro Kamo AS is a sujihiki. I don't know if this translates to a gyuto but the grind on this one is a convex wide bevel. Once again, I cannot detect any concavity. This type of grind respnds best to maintaining the convexity at thinning time. This is done with a kind of modified two sided hamiguriba sharpening, which is much easier to learn than it sounds.

My understanding that the Shiro Kamo AS offerings from KnS and cleancut had hollow grinds near the edge. Regarding sharpening and maintaining geometry of convex knives, I'm not super concerned about challenges there. I got a little practice on some of my cheaper knives, and it's something I enjoy learning. However, the reason I ask about concavity is because I dont think that is something I can maintain to a similar level to that of the factory grind. Speaking with Jon from JKI, he recommended maintaining the Kochi, which has a slight concave near the edge, with hamaguri sharpening.

Of course the Hinoura wedges. All knives wedge (except perhaps the thinnest of lasers), it's just a matter of degree of wedging and whether it wedges in short or tall food. Note that there is a tradeoff between wedging and food release. Good food release rewires grind features such as convexity that take up space in the grind (so can't be present in a laser). The Hinoura hyakuren is a middleweight with a flat (actually slightly concave) wide bevel. It wedges more than a laser, less than a heavyweight. If you want more heft to the blade but no wedging, you may want to look at one of the thick spined thinner/ almost laser knives. This grind is exemplified by the Akifusa (one of my favourite thinner knives unfortunately no longer available) and the Kippington laser. Note that this grind can wedge a little in tall food, although the extreme taper on the Kips means that this is minimised near the tip.

Knife selection is all about choices. You can't have laser like performance in a knife with heft. A thicker spine will wedge in tall foods but not short foods. But will allow a bit of extra food release. A knife with aggressive taper can give you two knives in one. Almost laser like at the tip and beefier at the heel. They do have more heft than a laser... but... this feeling if heft is often reduced because most of the knife's weight is near the heel. Many Sanjo knives are tapered (to a variable degree). While I only have around a dozen Sanjo knives, I have never seen a knife as aggressively tapered as a Kip.

Yea it makes sense that wider blades will necessarily need to wedge their way through product more than something that is overall thinner. My Mazaki spine is about 5mm over the heel and close to 3mm over the midpoint, so it's quite hefty.

 

[Nemo]

My understanding that the Shiro Kamo AS offerings from KnS and cleancut had hollow grinds near the edge.

However, the reason I ask about concavity is because I dont think that is something I can maintain to a similar level to that of the factory grind. Speaking with Jon from JKI, he recommended maintaining the Kochi, which has a slight concave near the edge, with hamaguri sharpening.

As I mentiomed, my Shiro Kamo AS is a suji, not a gyuto, but it certainly looks like an exclusively coonvex wide bevel to me. And behaved this way on the only occasion that I have thinned it.

I agree, it's almost impossible to maintain a concave grind without specialsed tools (such as a belt grinder or a large wheel grinder). I don't try. It just evenetually becomes a flat bevel over the course of several thinnings.

 

[Midsummer]

Speaking with Jon from JKI, he recommended maintaining the Kochi, which has a slight concave near the edge, with hamaguri sharpening.

Something here does not compute for me. That is the problem with words; they can be so specific. Hamaguri sharpening introduces a convexity to the blade.

Here is from Jon: On single bevel sharpening- Hamaguri and Beta Togi

"The first type of sharpening is hamaguri sharpening. In doing this, the blade road is sharpened in 2 parts and then blended together. The first sharpening is from the shinogi line down about 1/2 way or 2/3 the way down the blade road. In this first sharpening, the shinogi line should be moved up the same amount of height you intend to remove from the edge of the knife. The second sharpening is of the edge and the area just behind the edge. During this sharpening, you remove metal from the edge and form a burr. The two angles of these first and second sharpening are almost the same, so the difference comes mainly from finger placement and pressure, rather than lifting up the edge. These two bevels are then blended together to create a hamaguri edge."

So the concept of maintaining a concavity by sharpening a convexity onto the edge only make sense if you are analyzing the negative space around the edge.

I am probably being too literal or concrete. But, it seems that the suggestion is to maintain a concave blade road by slowly converting it to a convex blade road (however slight); and that is what I have done in practice. It just seems it is holding the OP up a bit.

Back on topic; a lot of good knives have been suggested. If you lived here I would have you over to try some of mine. Best of luck!

 

[tostadas]

I agree, it's almost impossible to maintain a concave grind without specialsed tools (such as a belt grinder or a large wheel grinder). I don't try. It just evenetually becomes a flat bevel over the course of several thinnings.

Something here does not compute for me. That is the problem with words; they can be so specific. Hamaguri sharpening introduces a convexity to the blade.

Here is from Jon: On single bevel sharpening- Hamaguri and Beta Togi

"The first type of sharpening is hamaguri sharpening. In doing this, the blade road is sharpened in 2 parts and then blended together. The first sharpening is from the shinogi line down about 1/2 way or 2/3 the way down the blade road. In this first sharpening, the shinogi line should be moved up the same amount of height you intend to remove from the edge of the knife. The second sharpening is of the edge and the area just behind the edge. During this sharpening, you remove metal from the edge and form a burr. The two angles of these first and second sharpening are almost the same, so the difference comes mainly from finger placement and pressure, rather than lifting up the edge. These two bevels are then blended together to create a hamaguri edge."

So the concept of maintaining a concavity by sharpening a convexity onto the edge only make sense if you are analyzing the negative space around the edge.

I am probably being too literal or concrete. But, it seems that the suggestion is to maintain a concave blade road by slowly converting it to a convex blade road (however slight); and that is what I have done in practice. It just seems it is holding the OP up a bit.

Back on topic; a lot of good knives have been suggested. If you lived here I would have you over to try some of mine. Best of luck!

I totally get what you are saying. I think the idea was to introduce some convexity, not necessarily convert the entire grind into a convex one. In an email with Jon, this is what he said regarding the Kochi (thanks Jon!):
"...despite being slightly hollow ground below the shinogi line when new, the maker recommends a subtle hamaguri grind along the blade road, resulting in a subtle s-grind overall."

All of the discussion so far has been very helpful. All of the recommendations seem excellent. I'm leaning toward the Masashi from Aframes right now, with taller height and non-KU finish (and the input about profile from you guys) as the deciding factors , since there will be pros and cons with all of the other aspects. I sent an email to Aframes with a few additional questions, and also wanted to check when they might have the Wh#2 version back in stock.

I'm not in a super rush to go buy a new knife right away. I'm curious to see if any deals pop up as we near the holiday season. But with all of the info provided, I will definitely be more comfortable now jumping on certain items if I see them available. Less chance of missing out on something since I won't have to research later on. Thank you everyone!

 

[Nemo]

"...despite being slightly hollow ground below the shinogi line when new, the maker recommends a subtle hamaguri grind along the blade road, resulting in a subtle s-grind overall."

Yeah, this sounds like an S-grind: convex near the edge, concave higher up, near the shinogi. So the concavity is not near the edge, it's higher up, towards the shinogi line.

My Shiro Kamo AS (suji, not gyuto) certainly doesn't have this type of grind so far as I can tell.

BTW, a good S grind can sometimes improve food release, even over a comparable convex grind.

Damn, gonna have to get my hands on a Kochi now.