Rika 5000 problem

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Benuser said:
There's a problem here. People are reluctant to suggest a coarse stone to a novice. If badly used serious damage can be caused. One cannot put back what got abraded.
That’s why people are being advised to start with a 1k.
Coarser stones are very useful for removing some steel or dealing with highly abrasion resistant steel types like the Wasabi.
If I had to sharpen one I would probably start with a Shapton 320 or 220 followed by a Chosera 400 or 500, deburr on a 800 and stop. Rough split leather in between, perhaps.
A Chosera 400 (Naniwa Professional) isn't the fastest cutter but has a lot of versatility, depending on the pressure you're applying and more or less water and more or less mud.
Most work is to be done with the first stone. The only reason we need finer ones is to get rid of the small burr they inevitably leave. If used properly, they already produce a scary sharp edge. A bit rough, though. With further refinement smoother cutting can be obtained, depending on the steel.
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hi look I noticed that with my stone 400 I don't notice any improvement, is it possible that it is the stone or me? What do you think if I buy a better stone?
 
I guess you didn't reach the very edge. Use the marker trick Mr Broida explains in his video. Use a loupe, 8x or 10x. You will be surprised.
 
I’ll try to do what you say, but if I want to change rocks, what do you think?
 
Unless you start with an ultra-blunt or damaged knife, there should never be a need to use a stone coarser than 1,000 grit. If you don't let your knives get really blunt, you won't even need the 1,000 and you can re-sharpen with a 3,000 grit.

A 5,000 grit stone is optional. With good steel, you'll get a marginal improvement, but not so that you would notice when cutting food in the kitchen. (You'll notice a difference when cutting paper, but I rarely cook paper…) For things like chillies and tomatoes, you may well find that a 5,000 edge cuts worse than a 3,000 edge.

In my opinion, anything beyond 5,000 grit is a waste of time for kitchen knives. For one, it's damn near impossible to tell the difference between a 5,000 edge and a 10,000 edge. And, even if there is a difference, after the first three minutes of cutting, there won't be a difference any longer because that 10,000 edge degrades to a 5,000 edge (or worse) in short order.
 
My way of sharpening is as at 4:50 minutes, I feel very well so. What do you think?

 
Not going below 1k? It depends. Might take far too long to change geometry, which is a waste of the stone and likely to induce errors.
Some steels benefit from coarser stones as a starter.
Others are so abrasion resistant they leave hardly any choice. That's the case of the Wasabi.
With a Naniwa Pro 400 risks are limited. One needs a lot of pressure and a lot of bad faith to cause irreparable damage with it.
 
It’s not the stone, I am using cheap King stones still & my knives are much sharper now. Get a 20-30x magnifying glass so you can see the edge where you actually sharpened vs. where you thought it was.

I was in similar situation before & seeing the edge made me realize what I did wrong. For the most part, my fine stone wasn’t going on where the coarse stones were at, lol.

Since I already use angle guide, I now lower the fine stone slightly to make sure the fine stone hits the edge not the shoulder created by corse stone.
 
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Benuser said:
Not going below 1k? It depends. Might take far too long to change geometry, which is a waste of the stone and likely to induce errors.
Some steels benefit from coarser stones as a starter.
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For a knife that doesn't need thinning or a repair or a profile change, yes, I don't see the need. Why would I use something coarser than 1,000 grit just to re-sharpen? If I need a 400-grit stone to get the knife sharp again, that just tells me that I let it go far too long and should have re-sharpened earlier.

I get a burr on any of my knives (various steels, Wüsthof, Opinel, CCK carbon, white #2, blue #2, VG-10, SG-2, ZDP-189, SLD) with a few swipes on a 1,000-grit stone, always. And usually, once I notice that a knife doesn't cut quite as well as it did before, I just grab a 3,000 stone and, three minutes later, it's sharp again. No need for even the 1,000-grit stone.

I really don't see the need for something coarser than 1,000 for regular maintenance. While starting on a 400-grit stone or some such will work, I suspect that, in the end, all that does is remove more metal than necessary. Sharpen often and early, and a 3,000-grit stone does it all.
 
Totally agree, no need to start below 1000 unless you need to re-profile the knife.
 
for example I've seen this bob kramer video now, I like his knife way but I don't know how to sharpen a knife in 10 minutes. I spend more than 30 minutes and I can't finish the paper perfectly

 
this morning I made a video to understand where I'm wrong. I sharpened a simple kitchen knife that I found at home, I started with a 400 then a 1000 and at the end 5000.
I did more than 40 minutes of sharpening and in the end I couldn't get a super sharp knife or I couldn't even cut the paper
 
Is that a dry stone? You don't reach the heel, nor the tip. I got the impression a lot of pressure is involved. Basically this motion is along the edge. Wonder whether the very edge is actually reached.
 
Benuser said:
Is that a dry stone? You don't reach the heel, nor the tip. I got the impression a lot of pressure is involved. Basically this motion is along the edge. Wonder whether the very edge is actually reached.
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no it is a water stone! what is i doing wrong? can you help me?
 
I think at this point, safe to say, forget everything you know about sharpening for a minute. Go watch :





THEN:





I think I will suggest after watching the above videos, slow down, find a consistent angle, edge trailing strokes, raise a burr, deburr.
 
andrixxx94 said:
no it is a water stone! what is i doing wrong? can you help me?
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I saw your video only ~4 Minutes but maybe i saw whats wrong.

1. Your Inex finger of the right hand should be on the blade to stable it.
2. slow down the sharpening speed. slow speed = more stable = more conistant edge
3. I always have my strong hand (right side) at the handle. Maybe your left hand is your strong side then always use your left hand.

If you cant hold the sharpening angle over the whole knife you won´t get a sharp edge
 
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I see the same things as benuser and de_mich.

I've been struggling a bit recently, and here's what helped me.
  1. A little less pressure, especially in the curved belly (smaller surface are contacting the stone means the same pressure down with your hand produces a burr much faster).
  2. Focusing on a relaxed hand and steady angle. Getting a good light so I can see where the knife casts a shadow on the stone so I can get the same angle every time I turn the knife over. Also feeling with my fingers that I'm resting the bevel at the right angle. Takes some finesse.
  3. I can get paper cutting sharp off a 220 stone if I deburr properly. Really. Try pulling the edge through a cork (real cork) to remove the burr, then go back to the stone to refine a bit with light pressure, then deburr with a cork again. Wash rinse repeat with LIGHT pressure on your coarse stone until you can cut the paper. It's 100% possible on coarse.
  4. Finishing with LIGHT edge leading strokes can help chase the burr too.
Kudos to making a vid and getting advice. Stick with it dude!
 
I thank you very much for your help, I did this video to try to do my best because I am putting all my will to learn. I know the video is very long and I imagine it is boring for you, but from this I understand where I'm wrong. Thanks for your advice and see if I understand something
1. I have to do less pressure, right? But I have a doubt, I have to do the pressure only when I climb to the top of the stone while when I go down, don't I? or the pressure is continuous both rising and falling at the moment of sharpening and for the entire duration of the sharpening
2. Is my sharpening angle ok or should I be lower?
3. So you are telling me that you can have a sharp knife even with a 220 stone? OH MY GOD! I really can't
 
Which knife do you use for practise? The cheapest knife is not the best knife for learning sharpening. Most times you can't sharp a 5€ knife very well.
I did this mistake at my beginning too
 
OP, just a word of encouragement here...you don't need expensive tools, steels, or stones to sharpen.
A bastard file and a chinese garden shears (~50 hrc) will cut paper after 5 minutes of work :D

What you do need to do is get a grasp on the correct geometry, and the process of testing your work as you go.

DO ALL THIS ON A 1K STONE. I wouldn't even think of using any stone below 700-800 grit (shapton 1K, chosera 800, are as course as you need). I would not even CONSIDER thinking about using a stone over 1000 grit (like a 3K or 5K) if you're knives cannot easily cut computer paper.

It might not cut it absolutely perfect, but it should easily be shredding computer paper off of 1K.

Finer stones are for very light pressure, polishing, and burr removeal. Light pressure doesn't provide tons of feedback, so if you are not holding the edge correctly, you will be harder to get the "feedback" from the stone/process to hold better/steady edge geometry on a stone over 1-2K.

Lastly, sharpening by hand is a motor control problem for your hands/arms and it takes time + repetitions (ie practice)... I'm sure for everybody itds pretty normal need to practice when starting out or refreshing skills after long abscence.

The 1K gives good feedback and cuts fast enough that fatigue won't cause problems. Using a fine stone too early or with inexperienced technique takes too many strokes and over time the changes of a poor angle on any given stroke will increase due to either fatique or simple stochasic error process (random mistakes).
 
i usually resharpen on my finishing stone. and its usually a 3 or 4k. takes maybe 1-5 minutes. if i see minor chips i drop down to a 1k.
if i see bigger ones i drop down to 220 to speed things up since i will have to thin it too.

for massive material removal i use the back-forth technique as shown by jki jon.

for actual fine sharpening i do swipes as kramer does. and the last ones on each stone is alternating sides. on my finishing stone i often only do the swipes.

when i started out i did the marker trick. let the ink dry and do a few swipes and see how much off you are. it makes things very easy.
 
andrixxx94 said:
https://www.veoh.com/watch/v141973896WpahzYFe
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I went till the end. Well, you know that constructive criticism thing books teach us? I had a really hard time finding it. I could point out the mistakes one by one, but this is the worse sharpening technique I have seen, on all counts. The wrong knife control and sides for sharpening and deburrs and anything really.
On my tomorrow I will try to do something about that. And don't worry, none of us woke up one morning sharpening knives like nothing else.
 
andrixxx94 said:
I thank you very much for your help, I did this video to try to do my best because I am putting all my will to learn. I know the video is very long and I imagine it is boring for you, but from this I understand where I'm wrong. Thanks for your advice and see if I understand something
1. I have to do less pressure, right? But I have a doubt, I have to do the pressure only when I climb to the top of the stone while when I go down, don't I? or the pressure is continuous both rising and falling at the moment of sharpening and for the entire duration of the sharpening
2. Is my sharpening angle ok or should I be lower?
3. So you are telling me that you can have a sharp knife even with a 220 stone? OH MY GOD! I really can't
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1) Before thinking about how much pressure, think where is that pressure applied? As things stand you finger placement is not very good, even if you got the "right pressure" its not going where it needs to go. I would recommend applying pressure only on the draw stroke and not the push stroke, at least for now, concentrate on rasing a proper even burr.

2) Your angle should be similar to the bevel of the knife. Its less about what angle than a consistent angle

3) As long as you understand the theory behind it and can properly apex the edge, even on a very coarse stone can get sharp. I can get reg stainless ikea knives to cut newsprint at 300, by the time I get to my Rika its almost silently spliting paper towels.

Don't be too discouraged if you aren't gettig great results yet, its not a one day game, most of us has put in more hours than you can imagine. Good job on the video, because you can always go back to see where you made the mistakes and where you can improve, if you keep on doing that you will get somewhere. I often make new/review old videos, trust me I cringe when I looked at my beginning videos on my King 1k
 
Thank you again because so many are really writing to me. I don't get discouraged, but I really want to learn. What I don't understand are the words of a little bit of everyone because I would be better at understanding with videos of you or someone so that I could better understand, besides the videos of JKI I have seen it several times, but I would like to see if there is something else
 
andrixxx94 said:
Thank you again because so many are really writing to me. I don't get discouraged, but I really want to learn. What I don't understand are the words of a little bit of everyone because I would be better at understanding with videos of you or someone so that I could better understand, besides the videos of JKI I have seen it several times, but I would like to see if there is something else
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I learned much from his old videos. He will explain how to sharpen knifes very carefully.

 
andrixxx94 said:
I thank you very much for your help, I did this video to try to do my best because I am putting all my will to learn. I know the video is very long and I imagine it is boring for you, but from this I understand where I'm wrong. Thanks for your advice and see if I understand something
1. I have to do less pressure, right? But I have a doubt, I have to do the pressure only when I climb to the top of the stone while when I go down, don't I? or the pressure is continuous both rising and falling at the moment of sharpening and for the entire duration of the sharpening
2. Is my sharpening angle ok or should I be lower?
3. So you are telling me that you can have a sharp knife even with a 220 stone? OH MY GOD! I really can't
Click to expand...

I'd say don't fret about the exact angle right now. Pick one and stick with it it. For starting out, if you put 2-3 quarters on the stone then lay the spine on the quarters, that's a good general angle to start. Focus is on consistent motions and angles, and getting from heel to tip evenly.

Use a bright light to look straight on at the edge. Any reflections are burr/chips. Work on those areas with some finesse and a light touch.

A consistent sound and texture feel from heel to tip also helps. Try to eliminate that *schwing* sound. The more boring the sound, the more you're on the right track.

It's a lot to consider all at once! Don't get discouraged. Take 30" a day, and measure progress in week, not days. You got this man.
 
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