Sabatier Nogent rivets and ferrules

[Bagotnj]

Hi, I’m looking for ferrules and rivets. I have several French rat-tail nogents and several ebony handles, but I’m missing ferrules and rivets to complete the knives. Does anyone have a source for these parts? Does anyone know what type of rivets are used for these and how they’re put together? Thanks, Nick

 

[cotedupy]

Huh, interesting.

The ferrule collar bit I suspect you may have to make yourself. I think it's probably aluminium, which is quite soft and easy to work.

The rat tail is peened, which you could probably do by chucking one or more small washers into the hole, cutting a little bit of the tail off, and then peening it.

 

[Benuser]

This long rat-tail remembers the oldest French Nogents where the handle was fixed with a bullet outside of the handle. A fragile construction with the very thin outbored ebony handle — it looked massive, but wasn't. Easily replaced, though, after breakage. The bullet is often lost.

 

[cotedupy]

This long rat-tail remembers the oldest French Nogents where the handle was fixed with a bullet outside of the handle. A fragile construction with the very thin outbored ebony handle — it looked massive, but wasn't. Easily replaced, though, after breakage. The bullet is often lost.

That's very interesting too! I don't think I've ever seen this before, you got any pics...?

 

[McMan]

I'd dry fit things, cut the tang almost flush (just like a mm over) then assemble everything using epoxy and held tight a clamp. At this point, the knife will be stable and strong and, hopefully, no epoxy dripped out the tang hole (be careful not to over fill when gluing up). Then, get some brass tubing from the hobby store that is the same diameter as the end hole where the tang exits, and cut the tubing to make a washer, or if you're lucky, maybe you can hunt down some small brass washers. Then epoxy this in the end. Once it's cured, lightly peen the rat tail, which will be easy since there's only a tiny bit sticking out. Another option would just be to use JB Weld around the rat tail. JB Weld is grey and wouldn't stand out even if it's not the period-appropriate look.

As to the ferrule, good luck. Unless you can solder/braze and blend a seam, you're up the creek. I've actually seen old repairs (like 50s-60s) done with thin-walled brass pipe and that worked well.

 

[Benuser]

That's very interesting too! I don't think I've ever seen this before, you got any pics...?

I only know from others' description and pictures. I do have an original Nogent handle from around 1890-1900, with lost bullet and broken end of the tang, where you actually can see the bullet was tightened to the handle, but not inside it, as it was later on.

 

[McMan]

I only know from others' description and pictures. I do have an original Nogent handle from around 1890-1900, with lost bullet and broken end of the tang, where you actually can see the bullet was tightened to the handle, but not inside it, as it was later on. View attachment 271580

IIRC, the plugs were poured metal. The tang was glued into the handle with cutler's glue (IIRC called "rozzle", which was hide glue and pitch and maybe sawdust). I encountered this on an old nogent and it was still rock hard but not brittle. Then, the poured metal plug added a mechanical bond because the plug diameter was greater than the slot diameter drilled for the tang.
It was a really good design--basically belt and suspenders.
Newer iterations of nogent just peened the end of the tang (the "rat tail) over a brass washer. This had the benefit of removing several manufacturing steps, but sacrificed a little oomph.

 

[Benuser]

The even older ones I remember had a bullet outside of the handle. No glue involved. The tang was within the largely outboored handle free between virole and bullet, all to keep it as light possible and allow a forward balance. The user could tighten when loose. A poor construction but allowing an easy replacement of the thin ebony.

 

[McMan]

The even older ones I remember had a bullet outside of the handle. No glue involved. The tang was within the largely outboored handle free between virole and bullet, all to keep it as light possible and allow a forward balance. The user could tighten when loose. A poor construction but allowing an easy replacement of the thin ebony.

I'm trying to imagine this, but am having a hard time visualizing. I don't think I've seen one with a 'bullet'. Any chance you could hunt up a pic online?

 

[Benuser]

I'm trying to imagine this, but am having a hard time visualizing. I don't think I've seen one with a 'bullet'. Any chance you could hunt up a pic online?

Not simple. The forums I know have deleted pictures, and some even complete threads. Had a long time ago a Trompette of the 1890's to clean up. It had a broken tang, and a replacement handle from a file. It was the first time I had an original Nogent from that era in my hands, and asked at another forum Bernard Levine about the original construction. The thread has been removed, but I've copied his answer. He wrote
"The tang would have been longer than the handle, peened over a tiny nickel silver burr at the butt end.
Also very thin.
The original ebony handles tend to split, because they are bored down the center with a large diameter hole, leaving just a thin web of wood on the sides. They look solid, but they're not."
With the tang being so thin at the end— less than 2 millimetres, the thin ebony sides, and the tiny "burr" (a typo, I guess), it is very unlikely to find an 1890 Nogent in its original state, or it should never have been used.
I have later handled another one, completely original this time, where the bullet had almost completely ended in the wood. A bit problematic as the virole had become loose. No further tightening was possible.
Here a silver knife by Jean Auguste Sabatier from the 1880's. A first communion present.
See the protruding bullet at the butt on the first photo.

 

[Ericfg]

Don't forget to check my thread about a Henckels nogent I repaired.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/old-henckels-100-7-carbon-steel.60274/#post-922681
It includes an actual x-ray of a nogent handle.

 

[McMan]

Not simple. The forums I know have deleted pictures, and some even complete threads. Had a long time ago a Trompette of the 1890's to clean up. It had a broken tang, and a replacement handle from a file. It was the first time I had an original Nogent from that era in my hands, and asked at another forum Bernard Levine about the original construction. The thread has been removed, but I've copied his answer. He wrote
"The tang would have been longer than the handle, peened over a tiny nickel silver burr at the butt end.
Also very thin.
The original ebony handles tend to split, because they are bored down the center with a large diameter hole, leaving just a thin web of wood on the sides. They look solid, but they're not."
With the tang being so thin at the end— less than 2 millimetres, the thin ebony sides, and the tiny "burr" (a typo, I guess), it is very unlikely to find an 1890 Nogent in its original state, or it should never have been used.
I have later handled another one, completely original this time, where the bullet had almost completely ended in the wood. A bit problematic as the virole had become loose. No further tightening was possible.
Here a silver knife by Jean Auguste Sabatier from the 1880's. A first communion present.
See the protruding bullet at the butt on the first photo.

Very interesting! I've never seen one with a bullet before. Glad to know this!

 

[Ericfg]

I just had another thought. If there's enough material how about threading the tang and using a nut to tighten it? I'm looking at my pepper mill here: