Sharp out of the Box?

[curreel]

It seems that many, if not most, Japanese knife manufacturers do not sharpen their knives to the extent that they could when they supply them to the retail or wholesale trade.

Does anyone have a view as to why this might be, please? Could it be because a fine edge is easily damaged, especially as many of those who acquire and use the knives are not familiar with the limitations relating to their use ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[stringer]

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...rst-piece-of-my-collection.66830/post-1033626

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

I dislike any sharpening done to the edge prior to receiving the knife, since those sharpening are often (to my experience) excessive and removes too much edge material, thickening the edge, making it harder for future sharpenings.

Though I understand that a zero edge with no prior sharpening can be fragile for shipping.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I suspect these days it is, as the comment Stringer linked says, mostly a practical reason but there is also some Japanese tradition behind it. The idea being that it is up to the knife wielder to put that final edge on and make it their own. That type of thing. Ceremonial and all that.

 

[Cliff]

I think the home user or the shop that sells it. There is an expectation that the user or retailer will be able to sharpen and maintain the knife. Many shops will offer a free initial sharpening, or take care of it for a nominal fee.

 

[Rideon66]

I think it has some to do with the maker. If they are very proficient at sharpening or affiliated with one they are being sold partly on that basis and expected to be like a Shibata, or known for a particular grind like Shindo.

Other makers are really just blacksmiths and they can put an edge on that is usable, but not going to put in the time and effort required to get what some of us want.

i know a lot of the smiths selling these higher end blades also figure we are going to put on the edge we want anyway.

 

[Benuser]

I suspect these days it is, as the comment Stringer linked says, mostly a practical reason but there is also some Japanese tradition behind it. The idea being that it is up to the knife wielder to put that final edge on and make it their own. That type of thing. Ceremonial and all that.

It's more than ceremonial, and not necessarily Japanese. Most of us are used to sharpen in a certain way they change only slightly taking into account some properties of a specific steel. Any new knife, even with a technically fantastic edge, will feel a bit weird. On the first occasion it will be adapted to what we're used to.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

It's more than ceremonial, and not necessarily Japanese. Most of us are used to sharpen in a certain way they change only slightly taking into account some properties of a specific steel. Any new knife, even with a technically fantastic edge, will feel a bit weird. On the first occasion it will be adapted to what we're used to.

Oh I agree but I do know there is a Japanese tradition behind it too. It was seen as a sign of respect.

 

[Benuser]

Oh I agree but I do know there is a Japanese tradition behind it too. It was seen as a sign of respect.

Oh, I see. Thank you!

 

[Heckel7302]

Oh, I see. Thank you!

I think meaning that it would be presumptuous for the maker to assume what kind of edge the end user desires.

 

[drrayeye]

It seems that many, if not most, Japanese knife manufacturers do not sharpen their knives to the extent that they could when they supply them to the retail or wholesale trade.

Does anyone have a view as to why this might be, please? Could it be because a fine edge is easily damaged, especially as many of those who acquire and use the knives are not familiar with the limitations relating to their use ?

Thanks in advance.

Not my experience. All of the knives I've received that were made in Japan arrived sharpened--even the knife a friend recently brought back from Japan had been sharpened--and not on site.

 

[Benuser]

Not my experience. All of the knives I've received that were made in Japan arrived sharpened--even the knife a friend recently brought back from Japan had been sharpened--and not on site.

Even if their is an edge, very different cases occur.
1. The indifferent and unpredictable one. Sharpening is done by the guy who got the job as he happens to be the boss' nephew. One stroke on the right side, one on the left and one more on the right one. A bit of buffing. Voilà. Done.
2. Much more buffing to strongly convex the edge, who got overheated. Looking great. Won't hold.
3. The edge made to avoid returns. The blade is strongly asymmetric, but described as ambidextrous. Let's put a very strong, strictly symmetric edge on it. Both sides 20°, plus a double microbevel. Poor performer but no chipping.
4. The edge made to ease the customer's own sharpening. By far the preferable case. Both sides at the lowest possible angle. Not to be actually used as such, as it will crumble with the first board contact.

It makes sense to find out with a new knife which is the case. With nr. 4 just a few strokes will do to establish an edge that will hold. In the cases 1 and 2 you will need a coarse stone to make an edge that corresponds to the blade's geometry. As in case nr. 3 make sure nothing is left from the factory edge. Use a sharpie and a magnifier. Overheated steel has to be removed, microbevels are nasty if you aren't aware of them. Removing a microbevel is a bit of work, even with a good coarse stone. Think a 320.
As in the cases 1 to 3 you're removing steel from the very edge, you better compensate for it with some thinning.
For a chef's knife which has a lot of board contact, an inclusive edge of about 25-30° is reasonable. E.g. 10° on the right side, 15 on the left; or 12° and 18. Much depending on the kind of steel, the board, and the user. For performance keeping it very thin right behind the edge is far more important than the very edge. Too low angles may be fun but hardly improve performance, while terribly reducing edge retention. Again, much depending on the type of steel. Very hard simple carbon steel takes and holds much lower angles than highly charged ones with big carbides.

 

[jedy617]

I think it really depends. I hear a lot about knives coming with no edge or crappy out the box edges because they know the chef will put their own edge on...however I think that might have changed with so many of these knives going overseas. I've had mostly really good out the box edges. Myojin, Takada, Hado, hatsukokoros and much more...all have had pretty decent edges. My hinoura had a pretty crappy out the box edge, shigefusa had no microbevel...TF edge was really ugly in terms of uneven bevels but it was very sharp.

I think it's a bit of an overblown thing. Do I think most of us could put as better edge or one more suitable for our own uses than the edges that a lot of these knives come with? Of course, but I think they mostly are pretty decent these days

 

[blokey]

I just wish everyone zero their edge let customer put their own angle… Anyway it’s just personal preference, got this new Sabun Powder pro, factory edge is more than usable but not to my liking, take like 10 minutes total to add a relief bevel, taken all the way up to 8000 Kitayama, because I like it this way.

 

[blokey]

Also most Japanese shop would offer free Honbazukr anyway for single bevels, respectable shops like JKI has free first time sharpening too

 

[Benuser]

How about Korin NY? They used to offer free initial sharpening for all knives, but it seems now to be offered only once to new customers.

 

[blokey]

How about Korin NY? They used to offer free initial sharpening for all knives, but it seems now to be offered only once to new customers.

Don’t know, but honestly I think vendors should do it first time, it’s not super time consuming, and helps when customers are new to this, putting on micro bevel or relief bevels can help a lot.

 

[blokey]

Single bevel Honbazuke is another story but a lot of Japanese shops would do it for you too.

 

[blokey]

BTW here’s a very similar question
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...he-bevels-on-a-ootb-knife.69345/#post-1066338

 

[curreel]

Thanks to everyone for the informative and helpful responses.

 

[drrayeye]

Even if their is an edge, very different cases occur.
1. The indifferent and unpredictable one. Sharpening is done by the guy who got the job as he happens to be the boss' nephew. One stroke on the right side, one on the left and one more on the right one. A bit of buffing. Voilà. Done.
2. Much more buffing to strongly convex the edge, who got overheated. Looking great. Won't hold.
3. The edge made to avoid returns. The blade is strongly asymmetric, but described as ambidextrous. Let's put a very strong, strictly symmetric edge on it. Both sides 20°, plus a double microbevel. Poor performer but no chipping.
4. The edge made to ease the customer's own sharpening. By far the preferable case. Both sides at the lowest possible angle. Not to be actually used as such, as it will crumble with the first board contact.

It makes sense to find out with a new knife which is the case. With nr. 4 just a few strokes will do to establish an edge that will hold. In the cases 1 and 2 you will need a coarse stone to make an edge that corresponds to the blade's geometry. As in case nr. 3 make sure nothing is left from the factory edge. Use a sharpie and a magnifier. Overheated steel has to be removed, microbevels are nasty if you aren't aware of them. Removing a microbevel is a bit of work, even with a good coarse stone. Think a 320.
As in the cases 1 to 3 you're removing steel from the very edge, you better compensate for it with some thinning.
For a chef's knife which has a lot of board contact, an inclusive edge of about 25-30° is reasonable. E.g. 10° on the right side, 15 on the left; or 12° and 18. Much depending on the kind of steel, the board, and the user. For performance keeping it very thin right behind the edge is far more important than the very edge. Too low angles may be fun but hardly improve performance, while terribly reducing edge retention. Again, much depending on the type of steel. Very hard simple carbon steel takes and holds much lower angles than highly charged ones with big carbides.

I'm sure that there are counter examples, and purchasers of some handmade knives may make alternative arrangements, but I've only experienced decent out of the box sharpness from Japanese knives. Face to face, there are shops in Japan, and even in the United States, that will customize and engrave in one's presence. There also are sellers who will do a check and make corrections before they send the knife out. I think we mostly take that for granted these days.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

Even if their is an edge, very different cases occur.
1. The indifferent and unpredictable one. Sharpening is done by the guy who got the job as he happens to be the boss' nephew. One stroke on the right side, one on the left and one more on the right one. A bit of buffing. Voilà. Done.
2. Much more buffing to strongly convex the edge, who got overheated. Looking great. Won't hold.
3. The edge made to avoid returns. The blade is strongly asymmetric, but described as ambidextrous. Let's put a very strong, strictly symmetric edge on it. Both sides 20°, plus a double microbevel. Poor performer but no chipping.
4. The edge made to ease the customer's own sharpening. By far the preferable case. Both sides at the lowest possible angle. Not to be actually used as such, as it will crumble with the first board contact.

It makes sense to find out with a new knife which is the case. With nr. 4 just a few strokes will do to establish an edge that will hold. In the cases 1 and 2 you will need a coarse stone to make an edge that corresponds to the blade's geometry. As in case nr. 3 make sure nothing is left from the factory edge. Use a sharpie and a magnifier. Overheated steel has to be removed, microbevels are nasty if you aren't aware of them. Removing a microbevel is a bit of work, even with a good coarse stone. Think a 320.
As in the cases 1 to 3 you're removing steel from the very edge, you better compensate for it with some thinning.
For a chef's knife which has a lot of board contact, an inclusive edge of about 25-30° is reasonable. E.g. 10° on the right side, 15 on the left; or 12° and 18. Much depending on the kind of steel, the board, and the user. For performance keeping it very thin right behind the edge is far more important than the very edge. Too low angles may be fun but hardly improve performance, while terribly reducing edge retention. Again, much depending on the type of steel. Very hard simple carbon steel takes and holds much lower angles than highly charged ones with big carbides.

I experience no. 3 so often that I'd rather use BST for new knives than direct from retailers now.

Which is probably one of the reasons why I enjoy Toyama's from JNS so much, that zero edge is fantastic.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I think it really depends. I hear a lot about knives coming with no edge or crappy out the box edges because they know the chef will put their own edge on...however I think that might have changed with so many of these knives going overseas. I've had mostly really good out the box edges. Myojin, Takada, Hado, hatsukokoros and much more...all have had pretty decent edges. My hinoura had a pretty crappy out the box edge, shigefusa had no microbevel...TF edge was really ugly in terms of uneven bevels but it was very sharp.

I think it's a bit of an overblown thing. Do I think most of us could put as better edge or one more suitable for our own uses than the edges that a lot of these knives come with? Of course, but I think they mostly are pretty decent these days

I've also had good OOTB edges. But I've also had crappy ones and ones that seemed nice but shark-toothed on the first use.

The most important thing isn't if or what type of edge the knife has new, it is getting to a place where you don't care.