Not when someone is using a glass "cutting board" as seems more common that I wish were true. The points flatten but there is still enough tooth to break the skin and fibers of food. Users of this kind of knife and board may only bring one for sharpening when they have mashed the serrations completely flat along the edge and the "knife" no longer saws. If you sharpen off the serrations they bring it back in a week and say it doesn't cut. This after you got them to promise not to cut on glass/ceramic/quartz/granite/etc.
Sharpening crappy knives
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Not when someone is using a glass "cutting board" as seems more common that I wish were true. The points flatten but there is still enough tooth to break the skin and fibers of food. Users of this kind of knife and board may only bring one for sharpening when they have mashed the serrations completely flat along the edge and the "knife" no longer saws. If you sharpen off the serrations they bring it back in a week and say it doesn't cut. This after you got them to promise not to cut on glass/ceramic/quartz/granite/etc.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
A properly designed serrated knife, does not "SAW",,,, and you only need a bevel on one side of the blade. The back of the blade should be completely flat.
The serrations merely exist to provide proper spacing between the so-calleed "teeth". The fewer serrations, the better.
"sawing" implies a chisel cutting action, with a forward-facing cutting edge to each "tooth",,,, and that is simply not how proper serrated knives are designed. Each "tooth" is actually a single-bevel knife-edge.
When sharpening, you should never need to touch the 'gullets",,,, Just sharpen the same as you would with any single-bevel blade. The gullets aren't involved in actual cutting,,,only the peaks of the "teeth" are cutting,,,, while the gullets themselves, merely help to reduce drag, and to space the "peaks" of the teeth" properly.
Think of it this way; start out with a straight-edged single-bevel blade,,, then apply a cylindrical rotary grinding tool at the same angle, and same depth of cut, indexed every sayyyyy .333" along the entire edge. With a 10" blade for example,,, you'd end up with a 30 tooth serrated blade, with each tooth being identically spaced, and the same height.
I've got a very old Zwilling 10" bread knife,,, probably 40 years old, which my girlfriend picked up in a yard sale. There are virtually no gullets left because the teeth are so badly rounded over from wear. When you place the blade-edge vertically on a flat surface,,, the gullets are so shallow that barely allow light to pass through. The gullets are probably 1mm deep,,,, yet,,,, that knife still cuts like a charm.
A while back,,,America's Test Kitchen tested a dozen or so "10" Bread Knives", ranging fron a few $, to $100. (or so). Their top pick was a Mercer Millenia with 31 serrations. It literally "fell" through heavy-crusted artesenal breads, with no signs of crushing. They probably paid $20. as I recall. I've bought three of those that I've given away as gifts, and kept one for myself, and I can fully understand why it was their top pick.
The serrations merely exist to provide proper spacing between the so-calleed "teeth". The fewer serrations, the better.
"sawing" implies a chisel cutting action, with a forward-facing cutting edge to each "tooth",,,, and that is simply not how proper serrated knives are designed. Each "tooth" is actually a single-bevel knife-edge.
When sharpening, you should never need to touch the 'gullets",,,, Just sharpen the same as you would with any single-bevel blade. The gullets aren't involved in actual cutting,,,only the peaks of the "teeth" are cutting,,,, while the gullets themselves, merely help to reduce drag, and to space the "peaks" of the teeth" properly.
Think of it this way; start out with a straight-edged single-bevel blade,,, then apply a cylindrical rotary grinding tool at the same angle, and same depth of cut, indexed every sayyyyy .333" along the entire edge. With a 10" blade for example,,, you'd end up with a 30 tooth serrated blade, with each tooth being identically spaced, and the same height.
I've got a very old Zwilling 10" bread knife,,, probably 40 years old, which my girlfriend picked up in a yard sale. There are virtually no gullets left because the teeth are so badly rounded over from wear. When you place the blade-edge vertically on a flat surface,,, the gullets are so shallow that barely allow light to pass through. The gullets are probably 1mm deep,,,, yet,,,, that knife still cuts like a charm.
A while back,,,America's Test Kitchen tested a dozen or so "10" Bread Knives", ranging fron a few $, to $100. (or so). Their top pick was a Mercer Millenia with 31 serrations. It literally "fell" through heavy-crusted artesenal breads, with no signs of crushing. They probably paid $20. as I recall. I've bought three of those that I've given away as gifts, and kept one for myself, and I can fully understand why it was their top pick.
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I sympathize with those of us tasked with sharpening the horrific blades of acquaintances, especially when the steel is crap and the edge barely sharper than the spine. One such friend last week brought to me 4 such knives (thankfully without images of the universe). Welcoming the challenge, I toiled well over an hour doing my best, starting with a Suehiro Cerax #320 that ended up so badly dished that it is probably ruined. I eventually got her blades sharp beyond her expectations. But in the future, faced with such bad edges I will start with something like my #140 diamond flattening plate or some sandpaper or a file. Or a brick. I do appreciate everyone's tips in this thread.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
I can sympathize with that. A while back, I offered (over the phone) to sharpen a batch of 16 knives for a friends' wife. Unknown to me at the time, she had bought these knives at a donation-center, and she told me the most expensive knife of the bunch, had cost her one dollar, and the others were between 25 cents to 50 cents a piece. Since I had not actually seen these knives before offering help, I was unaware of just what a mistake that blanket offer was to become.
Some blades were actually split, and all of them were so badly rolled over at the edges that they looked like hundreds of tiny mushrooms along the entire length of the edges. I presume they had done a lot of bone chopping and cutting frozen foods, and that someone had hammered on the spines to get these knives to cut. Brand new, there was only one knife in the entire bunch that might have originally cost $30. The rest were probably selling for $10. or less when new. They should all have simply been thrown out, but, I did my best to salvage as much as I could.. After seeing what kind of damage I was doing to my stones, I finally decided to run them through my Chef's-Choice TriZor 3-stage diamond sharpener, and that did an "OK" job. At least, by the time I was done,,,roughly 6 hours later,,, they were all "paper-cutting" sharp, and she was completely thrilled with the performance. I was more relieved than 'thrilled".
Hard Lesson learned;,,,,examine the damned knives BEFORE blindly offering.
Norton crystolon coarse and medium and Norton india fine.
Kawa
Senior Member
You are all describing the average knife I sharpen.
'Normal' (not chefs/cooks) friends and family only have those kind of kitchen drawer knives. I have to sharpen a lot to get better right. I can't be picky.
As long as I get them sharpen then before, they are happy and I have practised: win win.
And ofcourse I do get better in sharpening this horrible soft knives with high angles, so I see progression over the line.
Good thing about this is, it's a joy to sharpen my own knives once in a while.
The few people that actually own a Wusthof or Zwilling are always kind of scared to let me sharpen them: 'but they are really expensive and are still sharp'.
By word I can't convince them.
When they come over to my place for a visit (I don't like that kind of family-in-law uncles and aunts kinda visits
) that's my chance. I can show them what my proper knives are, and how they cut. Most of the time it results in me being allowed to sharpen their 10 years neglected Wusthof 
Only one family member owns a Jknife, and she threats it like its a fork or spoon: in the dishwasher, in the drawer.... I got it to sharpen and didnt know what it was (the kanji's all dissapeared somehow). Untill I got it rediculously sharp for a cheap knife. I told her it was a very pleasent knife to sharpen. 'Yes, its a good knife. My uncle bought it in Japan when he visited'... Most be a real thing, sadly I will never know what it is.
'Normal' (not chefs/cooks) friends and family only have those kind of kitchen drawer knives. I have to sharpen a lot to get better right. I can't be picky.
As long as I get them sharpen then before, they are happy and I have practised: win win.
And ofcourse I do get better in sharpening this horrible soft knives with high angles, so I see progression over the line.
Good thing about this is, it's a joy to sharpen my own knives once in a while.
The few people that actually own a Wusthof or Zwilling are always kind of scared to let me sharpen them: 'but they are really expensive and are still sharp'.
By word I can't convince them.
When they come over to my place for a visit (I don't like that kind of family-in-law uncles and aunts kinda visits
) that's my chance. I can show them what my proper knives are, and how they cut. Most of the time it results in me being allowed to sharpen their 10 years neglected Wusthof Only one family member owns a Jknife, and she threats it like its a fork or spoon: in the dishwasher, in the drawer.... I got it to sharpen and didnt know what it was (the kanji's all dissapeared somehow). Untill I got it rediculously sharp for a cheap knife. I told her it was a very pleasent knife to sharpen. 'Yes, its a good knife. My uncle bought it in Japan when he visited'... Most be a real thing, sadly I will never know what it is.
natto
Senior Member
Good point.
Idk I've never seen a glass cutting board in person.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Yes, yes, yesssss,,,,,,,EXCELLENT recommendation,,,,,, silicon carbide,,, and they probably feel a helluva lot better than many diamond plates. Dirt cheap, great value, long life,,,, and indestructible. Ideal "repair" stones. Seems perfect for those badly rolled-over "friends and relatives" knives. I'm ordering their 3 stone set.
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Sharpening Supplies sells a house brand version also. XL Oil Stone
Granted the coarse one doesn't feel or sound very nice in use. But definitely gets the job done.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
I've even used an axe file in extreme cases. Last time I did that, was with a Chinese cleaver with a split blade. I had to remove the entire edge of the blade, to a depth of roughly 1/4". I clamped the cleaver in a vise, then using smooth full-length strokes,,, heel to toe, I was able to get rid of the damage, while preserving the blade geometry. I then used the same file to rough-in a bevel,,, then restoring and refining a new edge with my water stones. Worked like a charm.
This I surely know. I used "saw" derisively. When abused the points get mashed flat and don't cut; instead they are forced into the item which is then torn by the gullets. This is not how it is supposed to work but it does allow these abused knives to keep working to a degree when their non-serrated counterparts would just slide hopelessly back and forth without much effect.
A file is the way to go on soft steel if you don't have power tools. The downside is that you have to support blade so that it doesn't flex and it needs to be clamped down so you can use both hands on file.
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Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Hi Mr. Wizard;
I wasn't responding specifically to your post,,,, I was merely offering a counter-view to the all-too-often used reference that serrated knives are "sawing". This may be true with a badly abused and neglected blades, but not necessarily true with a properly designed blade that's been reasonably well cared for.. A well-designed serrated blade should be very easy to care for, and yet, they are generally maligned as being "all the same", and requiring wayyy too much maintenance, when in actuality, it should be one of the easiest blades to care for,,,,, "if" it's "properly designed" in the first place.
New batch of crappy knives coming in blind this weekend!
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Have you got an axe file???- Joined
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I've got this one from my father-in-law and i was surprised how difficult it was to thin and sharpen.
I asked him if he would exchange this knife for a better one and he was glad to make the trade.
I was using basically JNS300 with no good results, so it was the excuse i was looking for to order a Shapton Pro 120 that's on its way.
It has become my standard to judge low grit stones on crappy knives.
The shapton should do well on it. Just whatever you do don't lap it with an atoma 140, you need low grit sic powder. An atoma with completely glaze the surface, and it will act like a stone of a much higher grit.
Also if the shapton doesn't cut it you can always order a bryxco manticore. It's a 60 grit sic waterstone.
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This is what I use with coarse stones to spare the Atoma.
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00BQBTA4Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00BQBTA4Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Do you mind illustrating how exactly you use that (from a biomechanical perspective)? Looks like an interesting and affordable solution...
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You just scrub the surface. The problem I've got with coarse Shaptons was above all they became far too smooth, think a 220 stone eventually delivering a 800 edge.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Aah so you just use them like a normal small sharpening stone. I thought maybe you'd somehow clamp the knife and freehand the pad or something.
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No, I use it so scrub the surface of a coarse Shapton, to get it rough again. Not going to spend my Atoma on a 120 or 240 grit stone.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Aaah.... I actually thought you were just using those pads to thin your knife. Who knows maybe it works? They're cheap enough that it's less of an issue if they die.
Here's my quickish and dirtyish way to sharpening crappy knives.
