sharpening limit

[henkle]

I'm a beginner when it comes to sharpening. I thought I was getting my knives sharp until I received a Tanaka ginsan gyuto. Sharper OOTB than any of my other knives which I have and have touched up post -purchase on my stones. I have white #1, blue #2 and super, an R2, which I have played with on the stones and thought I was doing OK. My question is... is there a limit to how sharp some steels will get, or is it just my lousy technique that doesn't allow me to get my other knives as sharp as the OOTB ginsan?

 

[KO88]

There surely is. Each steel has its limit. The heat treatment of each steel makes huge differences. I mean how thin the edge can effectively be...
Also depends on how you measure "sharpness"

IMHO Ginsan should be behind the others you named. Also, OOTB edges are often ground to 0. So they are sharp but don't last long.

 

[Benuser]

Some OOTB edges aren't meant to be actually used, just to make your own sharpening much easier. If you get an edge of 6⁰ per side don't even try using it with board contact.

 

[ian]

Practice practice!

 

[Delat]

I'm a beginner when it comes to sharpening. I thought I was getting my knives sharp until I received a Tanaka ginsan gyuto. Sharper OOTB than any of my other knives which I have and have touched up post -purchase on my stones. I have white #1, blue #2 and super, an R2, which I have played with on the stones and thought I was doing OK. My question is... is there a limit to how sharp some steels will get, or is it just my lousy technique that doesn't allow me to get my other knives as sharp as the OOTB ginsan?

Yes and yes. Technically each steel has a limit to how sharp it can get, but that difference in ultimate sharpness may not be discernible under normal conditions, and may not last very long depending on the steel. And it sounds like your sharpening might still have room for improvement.

Another aspect you missed is that the geometry (grind) of the blade also greatly, greatly affects perceived sharpness - what we generally call “performance” or describe as “a good cutter”. Depending on how thin your Tanaka is, and you might be experiencing the advantages of its grind.

You also didn’t mention bevel angle. Bevel angle also affects performance, and you make tradeoffs there between durability/toughness and edge retention vs performance.

All of my knives are sharpened the same way to the same degree. And yet some glide through food while others need a little more force. That’s ultimately due to the geometry of each knife.

All of the above aside, I passed several objective milestones while learning to sharpen that you could check yourself against. First was cleanly slicing copy paper, what I consider 5-7 out of 10 in sharpness. Next was push-cutting freestanding newspaper - fold it up accordion style, stand on end and push down with the knife; that’s a 8 of 10 for me. After that is slicing the rolled edge of newspaper (at an angle, not straight down), or slicing a paper towel, 9 of 10. Then hanging hair test (HHT) level 3 or 4, 10 out of 10.

For what I cook in the kitchen and my skill level, I can’t distinguish between 9/10 and 10/10 when cutting food but both of those levels have the “freshly sharpened” feel. Inevitably when I start to notice that my knife might be due for a touchup it’s dropped down to the 5-7 range, still easily slicing paper but failing to push cut. This is still a very usable and respectable level of sharpness, though.

Good luck and keep practicing!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Practice practice!

This. The steels you have should be capable of getting outstanding edges. So, the most likely culprit is you. But I don't say that in a bad way, but rather actually as a good thing. Because it gives you the information you need to work on.

Be sure you're getting a keen apex by raising a burr the full length on each side. The next part is where I struggled (and sometimes still mess up) and that is the deburring. So many times I rolled or crushed or otherwise ruined the apex I'd just worked to get when I went to deburr. I know it will be contentious for some, but I recommend starting out with light edge trailing strokes, minding your angle. This will remove most or all of the burr you created but may cause the slightest formation of a new one. I say, for now, accept that and see how sharp your knives are. Once you're getting them where you want them, start working on incorporating light edge leading deburring strokes.

I don't know why, but me and many others, would mess up when deburring edge leading on stones. I would typically get so focused on pressure, I'd raise the angle a smidge too much and ruin the edge.

Now, none of that may apply and if so, try to isolate where your issue is. You'll get it!

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Also, OOTB edges are often ground to 0. So they are sharp but don't last long.

Some OOTB edges aren't meant to be actually used, just to make your own sharpening much easier. If you get an edge of 6⁰ per side don't even try using it with board contact.

Is this a recent trend? Was not it once common for knives to come with a more robust edge than necessary?

 

[user 16756]

is this tested sharpness like a bess tester, feeling of the edge or use on product?

a well formed but relatively coarse edge can feel exceptionally sharp because it will have a lot of bite. Ive not had a Tanaka ginsan but I have had his R2 and Blue 2 stuff and my recollection was the edge ootb was not like, 16k ultra refined stuff.

if you cant match the feel of what he's doing at a similar grit then sure your technique maybe could use some improvement.

not to be unhelpful but there are so many small things you can do with sharpening to push your results a bit further that it's hard to say "do this this and this and youll get great results"

if you arent properly apexing and deburring that is the basics and you must get to where you can do that reliably. after that you can pay mind to:

• specific angles and how youre subtly convexing your edge bevel
• degrees of polish/refinement, how big your jumps are from stone to stone
• what specific stones you are using
• how flat are your stones? how straight is your edge? how even is your edge ground along its whole length?
• how careful are you with your deburring? are you using compounds? what material? how much are you using?
• are you using swarf/mud/nagura to sharpen? how much you refine that, how thick it is, etc. can all make a difference
• edge leading versus edge trailing, heel to tip or tip to heel, etc.
• how even are you really able to be?

I dunno the list just goes on.

fwiw white 1 should be able to take and hold a really steep angle and high polish that should easily match any equivalent routine on ginsan. it might be worth tracking down a really good, experienced sharpener, someone who works on stones, and see if you cant pay for them to REALLY sharpen your knife. ask for the absolute best they can do and if they would show you a bit about how they did it even if it costs a bit of extra money.

 

[user 16756]

Is this a recent trend? Was not it once common for knives to come with a more robust edge than necessary?

if anything putting usable OOTB edges on knives is the newer trend, at least for Japanese knives.

 

[henkle]

Thanks for all the advice. I had initially found my white and blue carbon knives had the best feel on the stones, but in fact I was able to get my R2 Makoto bunka the sharpest. As this goes against most knowledge about the ease of sharpening carbon vs. stainless steels, I feel like I must have just got lucky on the R2. I'll keep practicing.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

If you are new, then I would bet that it's probably mostly technique. Keep practicing. Sharpening takes time to learn, and you'll have valleys and plateaus along the way.

As far as steel goes, you are correct that there *is* a limit on how sharp some can get, but with the proper technique you will be able to get just about any steel stupid sharp.

For me the difference in steels is less in how sharp the knife gets, but more how long it holds that edge. I can get very cheap stainless, or basic carbon steel crazy sharp, but the edge won't last through 2 potatoes. About a year or so ago I really started focusing on doing the correct edge for the purpose of the knife. I do my folders a bit sharper and more refined as I like the look and the ability to cut through paper easily. However, with my kitchen knives I leave the edge pretty coarse since they do vegetables and meats.

For now I would suggest more time on the stones and see what that does for your edges. Maybe watch some youtube videos of some great sharpeners to see what they are doing that you're not, and try to incorporate some of their technique into your own sharpening.

Good luck!

 

[Nemo]

Yes, there is a limit on how sharp each steel can get.

If your sharpest ever knife was in R2, you haven't found that limit yet.

I personally find that I hit that limit earliest in Western Stainless (maybe due to the coarse grain, maybe because the burr is so tenacious that I have never properly gotten rid of it all). Even softer Japanese steels such as Aus8 are streets ahead.

 

[big_adventure]

Every single one of the steels you have there is very, very capable of being HHT4 or HHT5 sharp.

People do love to crow on about low alloy steels (they call them carbon steels, but since, by definition, every steel is a carbon steel, I don't use the term) getting sharper than other steels. But it's not like there is a limit: it's easier to sharpen less-resistant steels, as many low alloy steels are less-resistant than most high alloy or stainless steels, so it's easier to get a better edge. However, @Deadboxhero brings REX121 to a sharper edge than a brand new Feather razor blade (which is most definitely trivially HHT5 itself). If he can do that, you can, with enough skill, bring every steel you have to that level, as all of them are easier to sharpen than REX121.

 

[M1k3]

Every single one of the steels you have there is very, very capable of being HHT4 or HHT5 sharp.

People do love to crow on about low alloy steels (they call them carbon steels, but since, by definition, every steel is a carbon steel, I don't use the term) getting sharper than other steels. But it's not like there is a limit: it's easier to sharpen less-resistant steels, as many low alloy steels are less-resistant than most high alloy or stainless steels, so it's easier to get a better edge. However, @Deadboxhero brings REX121 to a sharper edge than a brand new Feather razor blade (which is most definitely trivially HHT5 itself). If he can do that, you can, with enough skill, bring every steel you have to that level, as all of them are easier to sharpen than REX121.

He also uses diamond on steels like that.

 

[Benuser]

Yes, there is a limit on how sharp each steel can get.

If your sharpest ever knife was in R2, you haven't found that limit yet.

I personally find that I hit that limit earliest in Western Stainless (maybe due to the coarse grain, maybe because the burr is so tenacious that I have never properly gotten rid of it all). Even softer Japanese steels such as Aus8 are streets ahead.

A notion that is very useful in this respect is that of edge stability, as Roman Landes puts it, and 'open' vs. 'closed' edges. Steels of a fine structure allow easily fine edges, and simple deburring, while coarser ones with large carbides require more obtuse angles and deburring becomes more challenging. That being said, people seem not to have the same idea of sharpness: some looking for tons of bite, while others look at the quality of the cut with a smooth edge.

 

[big_adventure]

He also uses diamond on steels like that.

Sure, though that's not really my point. You can get any steel that sharp. Ginsan, Blue 1 and White 2 (for example) wouldn't even benefit from using stones with harder abrasives: AlO works just fine on all three, and generally cuts faster than any other. Ginsan will be a little more finicky to sharpen, but it will take the same keenness of edge, no wuckas. Many people, in this thread and elsewhere, have insinuated or outright stated that low alloy edges get sharper. Many people, including many of us, have proven otherwise.

 

[Nemo]

no wuckas.

And here was I thinking that this was an Aussie expression...

 

[big_adventure]

And here was I thinking that this was an Aussie expression...

It is! I'm just multicultural like that.

 

[shauk]

I'm a beginner when it comes to sharpening. I thought I was getting my knives sharp until I received a Tanaka ginsan gyuto. Sharper OOTB than any of my other knives which I have and have touched up post -purchase on my stones. I have white #1, blue #2 and super, an R2, which I have played with on the stones and thought I was doing OK. My question is... is there a limit to how sharp some steels will get, or is it just my lousy technique that doesn't allow me to get my other knives as sharp as the OOTB ginsan?

I am on the same boat as you!

All of the above aside, I passed several objective milestones while learning to sharpen that you could check yourself against. First was cleanly slicing copy paper, what I consider 5-7 out of 10 in sharpness. Next was push-cutting freestanding newspaper - fold it up accordion style, stand on end and push down with the knife; that’s a 8 of 10 for me. After that is slicing the rolled edge of newspaper (at an angle, not straight down), or slicing a paper towel, 9 of 10. Then hanging hair test (HHT) level 3 or 4, 10 out of 10.

Going by Delat's metrics I'd say I am on a 8.5 as I've achieve slicing paper towel occasionally on my VG-10 before recently focusing more technique (longer time between each stroke but focusing on maintaining angle).

I'd say on the stones I can get it to a 7.5 sharpness and stroping with compound gives me that 0.5 more.

There's some really good input on a my thread posted last week you can reference.

 

[KingShapton]

That being said, people seem not to have the same idea of sharpness: some looking for tons of bite, while others look at the quality of the cut with a smooth edge.