Stones for Gyuto in Canada

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Keen&Bright

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Hi folks,

I've been lurking here the last couple of weeks soaking up as much info as I can. Really an amazing resource here.

I'm looking to get a SS clad gyuto such as a Masakage Koishi but first I'd like to get some stones and practice on my cheap SS German knives and my Shun Classic Chef's knife. I'm a home cook mostly cutting veg like onion, garlic, broccoli, carrot, peppers, etc. with chicken here and there.

I've been looking into getting a 1k or 2K Naniwa Chosera along with an 8k Kitayama from Metal Master. I've seen some conflicting opinion on 8k for gyutos with some saying it shouldn't be used at all for double bevel and some saying that if you do a jump from 1k it stays toothy enough and retains it's edge well enough. I like the idea of having the option of staying on the 8k for longer and experimenting with getting it really sharp and somewhat polished. Thoughts on this?

What are your thoughts on 1k vs 2k to 8k? Or only using 1k vs 2k for the cheap SS if I find it really can't handle the 8k?

I've also been considering:

Tosho- 1k Nani pro and Suehiro Rika instead of the Kitayama (more expensive)

Paul's finest- 1k pro with a 6k Nani traditional (more expensive) or 5k or 8k Nani super (significantly more expensive)

I've been feeling like it would be nice to get 2 good ones and not feel the need to upgrade down the way although I'm open to getting 3 cheaper ones if people think that would be better. Maybe get a lapping plate (I'll probably use the glass and drywall screen for now), something coarser once I gain more skill, and maybe something in the 3k-6k range down the road if I go with the 8k for now.

Any other stone combos I should be looking at in Canada?

Here's an intro thread I made the other day with a bit more info if you're interested:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-a-rabbit-hole-now-what-stones-and-knife.40605/

Thanks everyone!
 
You will get a lot of different opinions and suggestions.

The Naniwa Pro line is nice but expensive. IMO worth it and you will have them for a really long time. I would go 400-800-3000. You could start with just the 400 and 800 and get a diamond plate to flatten instead.

The super stones are soft, load up really bad and polish higher than their grit rating. I started on them and they are not the best to start with. I appreciate them more with experience but still not ideal for knives.

I bought a few stones from PaulsFinest, great service and fast shipping. Only downside is you pay both Quebec Taxes.

PaulFinest also carry the Shapton Pro and Shapton Glass line.
Pro I would go 220-1000-2000
Glass I would go 500-2000

Fendrihan has the Shapton lines also.

Forget about an 8000 stone for now, or forever. 3000 (NP is more like 4000) is plenty for kitchen knives.

I bought a lot of stones over the years and if I was to start again, I would get the Naniwa Pro right away and be done with it.

PS : Never EVER EVER soak the Naniwa Pro stone not even for a few seconds. I personnaly like to water them on top and wait 5minutes before starting.
 
I'd also look into Lee Valley if you have one in your area (specifically the King & Bester stones they carry).

I can't speak to how Shuns behave (I'm sure someone else can), but for cheap SS you'll want to go much under 1K (especially if they don't have an edge set). Once you get a knife like the Koishi it will feel like night and day on the stone and you'll likely want to throw your old knives out the window because cheap soft SS is a PITA to sharpen.

I would recommend starting with a single 1K stone for a Japanese knife and practicing solely on it, no need for high grits. Beginners (like I was) are keen on these high numbers thinking it will get them a better edge, it won't. Maybe you could be more specific on your cheap German SS knives you want to sharpen, what brand are they? There's an old thread I recall on stones for that situation but I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
 
I've been using the Naniwa 400 to the Green Brick of Joy lately with lots of success (but the GBOJ is a love/hate thing for people and I picked it up for cheap from a co-worker). I do have the Shapton Pro 1000/5000 and a Imanishi 8000, but I find I get a better working edge off the 2000.

I've seen a number of comments lately for the Shapton Glass 500 to the Pro 2000 as a great combo. Both stones apparently fit in the 2000 box making for a tight compact kit. I've had those two stones in my cart at Paul Finest for over a week now, just haven't pulled the trigger.
 
esoo said:
I've been using the Naniwa 400 to the Green Brick of Joy lately with lots of success (but the GBOJ is a love/hate thing for people and I picked it up for cheap from a co-worker). I do have the Shapton Pro 1000/5000 and a Imanishi 8000, but I find I get a better working edge off the 2000.

I've seen a number of comments lately for the Shapton Glass 500 to the Pro 2000 as a great combo. Both stones apparently fit in the 2000 box making for a tight compact kit. I've had those two stones in my cart at Paul Finest for over a week now, just haven't pulled the trigger.
Click to expand...

Shapton Glass 500 + Shapton Pro 2000 is what I use most of the time and yes they fit in the case just fine. You then put a diamond plate under and hold everything together with a rubber band or velcro strap, nice compact kit. The Shapton Pro 2000 is amazing. Shapton Glass 500 is thin and wears kinda fast but very good. Mine is a hair thick and still works.
 
Keen&Bright said:
Hi folks,

I've been lurking here the last couple of weeks soaking up as much info as I can. Really an amazing resource here.

I'm looking to get a SS clad gyuto such as a Masakage Koishi but first I'd like to get some stones and practice on my cheap SS German knives and my Shun Classic Chef's knife. I'm a home cook mostly cutting veg like onion, garlic, broccoli, carrot, peppers, etc. with chicken here and there.

I've been looking into getting a 1k or 2K Naniwa Chosera along with an 8k Kitayama from Metal Master. I've seen some conflicting opinion on 8k for gyutos with some saying it shouldn't be used at all for double bevel and some saying that if you do a jump from 1k it stays toothy enough and retains it's edge well enough. I like the idea of having the option of staying on the 8k for longer and experimenting with getting it really sharp and somewhat polished. Thoughts on this?

What are your thoughts on 1k vs 2k to 8k? Or only using 1k vs 2k for the cheap SS if I find it really can't handle the 8k?

I've also been considering:

Tosho- 1k Nani pro and Suehiro Rika instead of the Kitayama (more expensive)

Paul's finest- 1k pro with a 6k Nani traditional (more expensive) or 5k or 8k Nani super (significantly more expensive)

I've been feeling like it would be nice to get 2 good ones and not feel the need to upgrade down the way although I'm open to getting 3 cheaper ones if people think that would be better. Maybe get a lapping plate (I'll probably use the glass and drywall screen for now), something coarser once I gain more skill, and maybe something in the 3k-6k range down the road if I go with the 8k for now.

Any other stone combos I should be looking at in Canada?

Here's an intro thread I made the other day with a bit more info if you're interested:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-a-rabbit-hole-now-what-stones-and-knife.40605/

Thanks everyone!
Click to expand...

I'd say no need to get an 8k early. Its like the last stone you would need.

If you can get shaptons I would get maybe the 500 (get the double thick one) and 2k or 3k or 4k glass depending on where you want to stop.
for cheap soft SS 2-3k is their usable limit kinda. They will of course get sharper but they will not be able to hold this edge for more than a few minutes at most.

I stop at shapton pro2k or glass 3k for coworkers soft SS knives. the 3k get significantly sharper imo. This is where its starting to get really sharp imo.

If you can afford a diamond plate I would get a 325/C dmt or 400 atoma and then a 2, 3 or 4k glass or pro.

I think the 3k is the best compromise for general use if you have 1 other coarser stone. And if you are only getting one single stone it would be the pro 2k imo.
 
esoo said:
I've seen a number of comments lately for the Shapton Glass 500 to the Pro 2000 as a great combo. Both stones apparently fit in the 2000 box making for a tight compact kit. I've had those two stones in my cart at Paul Finest for over a week now, just haven't pulled the trigger.
Click to expand...

you cannot fit a pro and a glass stone in a pro box. 2 glass will fit but not one of each. i just tried it to confirm.

Regarding pro vs glass.
I have the following grits in both 220, 1000, 2000

And the glass is simply slightly more creamier better feeling, slightly faster, and wear slightly slower. They are better stones.
But more (about twice I'd guess) expensive to use. Considering how these wear and remove metal.
 
in a pro box there is a foam piece of 5mm and then the stone 15mm. this is a good fit. a glass stone is about 10mm in total so 2 of those will fit if you remove the foam.
 
I should note that the Pro and Glass new probably won't fit in the case. Mine are well used so they fit now...
 
inferno said:
you cannot fit a pro and a glass stone in a pro box. 2 glass will fit but not one of each. i just tried it to confirm.

Regarding pro vs glass.
I have the following grits in both 220, 1000, 2000

And the glass is simply slightly more creamier better feeling, slightly faster, and wear slightly slower. They are better stones.
But more (about twice I'd guess) expensive to use. Considering how these wear and remove metal.
Click to expand...

Curious that Glass stone wear slower than Pro because according to Stu (Tools from Japan) the Pro wear significantly less than the Glass in 1000 grit. Have you ever done any testing ?
 
Yeah and the glass seems to wear slower at least the ones I have double of. Its not by much but still. I wouldn't go out buying the glass if I already had the other one. If you dont have them side by side and simply switching you will probably not notice a difference at all.
 
I’ve been sharpening knives for many years, it doesn’t mean I’m a good Sharpener but the time between now and when I started has enabled me to make countless mistakes. A big one was thinking I need ultra fine finishing stones to get my knives sharper than I’ve ever seen them. I started my water stone collection from the top down, 15k, 12k, 13k, 10k and 8k. That was flawed thinking on my part and those stones are rarely used now. I think the suggestion of the NP 400, 800 and 3,000 is very good. You can sharpen any knives with this combo as you can with SG 500 and SP 2000. Focus on the fundamentals and technique, get your knife as sharp as your skills allow on the coarse stone. It only took me 20 years to figure this out.
 
DanDan said:
Maybe you could be more specific on your cheap German SS knives you want to sharpen, what brand are they?
Click to expand...

They're Henkles Costco special. I don't really care if these stones work super well on them to be honest. I don't mind continuing to use the spyderco on them to keep them serviceable. More ones that will work alright for the Shun and will work well for a carbon edge of something like a Koishi.

The Nani Pro 1000 with a 3000 is quite expensive but I'd get them if it's a huge difference. I'll poke around looking at comparisons with Shapton.

The Shapton pros are out of stock in some of the grits mentioned on local sites. I can get them from Metal Master but they don't carry the glass line. I understand the grits are lower than they're rated.

Looking at this chart I could go 1000 or 1500 to 2000 or 5000 (the site doesn't carry 3000 or 4000)

esoo said:
I do have the Shapton Pro 1000/5000 and a Imanishi 8000, but I find I get a better working edge off the 2000.
Click to expand...
You're not a fan of the 1000 to 5000? Would 1500 to 5000 be better?
 
Keen&Bright said:
The Nani Pro 1000 with a 3000 is quite expensive but I'd get them if it's a huge difference. I'll poke around looking at comparisons with Shapton.
Click to expand...
Suehiro Cerax 1000 and 3000 might be a good alternative, at a lower price.
 
those kenckels are really soft and wont take as acute angle as a harder carbon knife, so practicing on them isn't going to be hugely beneficial because you will have to relearn your angles when you get a better knife.

the naniwa pro 400/800/3k combo is a great recommendation, but nothing wrong with starting with just the 800 and adding the other two after your confidence is there.
 
galvaude said:
The Naniwa Pro line is nice but expensive. IMO worth it and you will have them for a really long time. I would go 400-800-3000
Click to expand...

Sailor said:
I think the suggestion of the NP 400, 800 and 3,000 is very good.
Click to expand...

gman said:
the naniwa pro 400/800/3k combo is a great recommendation, but nothing wrong with starting with just the 800 and adding the other two after your confidence is there.
Click to expand...

Why 800 to 3k vs 1k to 3k?
 
Get a king 300 for $50 on amazon and a sigma select 2 3k from Lee Valley. It's a fantastic 2 stone punch and all you'll need
 
@vicv your 2 stone punch sounds like a great Deal. I heard the sigma select 2 dishes really fast. Can you compare the dish-resistance with some other Stones like King, naniwa or imanishi?
 
Dish resistance is good. Better than king 4k, Norton 4k, Rika 5k. Comparable I'd say to chosera 3k. But faster(much) than any of those with comparable finish and will cut the carbides in even the nastiest steel due to pure sic make-up. The 1k and 220 select 2 dish fast. 3k and up are quite hard
 
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