Takeshi Saji R2 vs SG2 (mirror polish vs matte)

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Dan E

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
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Location
Hong Kong
Hi everyone,

I am new in the forums and have had a question bugging me for the last couple of weeks - maybe you can help me here.

There is a specific Gyuto knife I have been looking at for a while. However, it seems like there are two versions of this: listed is an R2 (with mirror finished)

https://www.hocho-knife.com/takeshi...gyuto-knife-210mm-with-blue-turquoise-handle/
and an SG2 with matte finish

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-S...534441?hash=item3429db41a9:g:zw0AAOSwUD5e4IKM
can you tell me what the difference here is in quality (cutting and finishing)? I am confused for two reasons:

1) I read in other parts of the forum that the R2 vs SG2 is an own debate.. and found many times that the steels are actually the same

2) the price difference between the two knives is pretty substantial. Does this entirely come from the finishing (meaning the mirror one is harder to make or so), or is it just a merit of two different dealers and the knifes are actually identical in cutting quality etc., modulo the style which is up to the buyer?

lastly, is this a knife worth investigating from your point of view? I got stuck on it because I have a budget around 1000 USD (+-200) and I am looking for a good looking option which is as well made (sharp and build) as possible. I am aware that there are dozens of options and the right choice possibly needs further specification for my field of use -- let's just say I am a beginner and want to find something that makes me very happy in a long while (e.g. as THE one knife).

Thanks and best regards,
-Dan
 
I'm pretty sure the steel is the same and the price difference reflects the finish. Saji is probably better known on this forum for his handles than performance - but I've never used one.
 
Dan E said:
1) I read in other parts of the forum that the R2 vs SG2 is an own debate.. and found many times that the steels are actually the same
-Dan
Click to expand...

Kobelco (Kobe Steel) developed and makes the powder steel R2. They sell some to Takefu Specialty Steels who resell it as SG2 (Super Gold 2). They are always the same thing.
 
Thanks for the swift answers - they help plenty.

regarding Sashi‘s reputation, do people around have some secret favourites for Damascus knives with great cutting properties for around 1000 USD? I feel SG2/R seems to be a pretty standard material, nothing special. Maybe it doesn’t need to, but for that price point I thought maybe something better can be found. Any thoughts from your side? I read about Koji Hara being popular (though I don’t like the look of the handles as much - at least of the knives available on some pages), or the Tanaka ironwood.

Best regards,
- Dan
 
Dan E said:
Thanks for the swift answers - they help plenty.

regarding Sashi‘s reputation, do people around have some secret favourites for Damascus knives with great cutting properties for around 1000 USD? I feel SG2/R seems to be a pretty standard material, nothing special. Maybe it doesn’t need to, but for that price point I thought maybe something better can be found. Any thoughts from your side? I read about Koji Hara being popular (though I don’t like the look of the handles as much - at least of the knives available on some pages), or the Tanaka ironwood.

Best regards,
- Dan
Click to expand...
i dunno about the $1000 price point, but people who are spending $1000 on knives already know what they want.

I have a beautiful damascus Yoshimi Kato SG2 240 gyuto that sells for $300 USD. Take a look. I bought it from KnivesandStones and also bought their Saya and it is absolutely beautiful.

Yoshimi Kato (Kintaro) SG2 / R2 Damascus Gyuto 240 mm – K&S - New York (knivesandstones.us)
 
Thanks for the links!

I was looking at jck before but it seems the cool stuff is mostly sold (up to some expensive mr itou). I read good things about mr itou, koji hara, etc. but wonder at which price point damascus blades just get more expensive because of the finishing and not actually because of quality of craft/the materials used. Some of the jck house knives look pretty decent but cost a fraction only.

In short - do you think the saji knive i posted is worth its 700 odd USD? and are there "better" choices (as objective as possible, maybe less hot brand, better steel etc) around at this price?

Best regards,
-Dan
 
Fancy damascus cladding doesn't do anything for the performance of the knife; it's just there to look good. And trust me... you don't want a mirror polished blade as your first blade when you don't know how to sharpen. It'll just get scuffed, look bad, and be difficult for a novice to fix. I think that since you're a beginner, you might consider taking your original budget of roughly $1000 (or whatever) and buy several knives in the $200-350 range to get a sense of what you prefer. Most of the knives you're considering are expensive because of "blingy" handles and cladding, not because the cut especially well. That's not to say they won't cut well, but if you're serious about finding a knife that will make you happy for a long time, it's worth trying blades with different profiles, grinds, and lengths. And I'd try to pay more attention to the grind and profile of the blade than to irrelevant things like turquoise handles and Damascus cladding.
 
btbyrd said:
Fancy damascus cladding doesn't do anything for the performance of the knife; it's just there to look good. And trust me... you don't want a mirror polished blade as your first blade when you don't know how to sharpen. It'll just get scuffed, look bad, and be difficult for a novice to fix. I think that since you're a beginner, you might consider taking your original budget of roughly $1000 (or whatever) and buy several knives in the $200-350 range to get a sense of what you prefer. Most of the knives you're considering are expensive because of "blingy" handles and cladding, not because the cut especially well. That's not to say they won't cut well, but if you're serious about finding a knife that will make you happy for a long time, it's worth trying blades with different profiles, grinds, and lengths. And I'd try to pay more attention to the grind and profile of the blade than to irrelevant things like turquoise handles and Damascus cladding.
Click to expand...


I am currently not too worried about sharpening, there should be people around town here who could help me out (while I am practicing on cheaper blades).

About the harshness of the price -- that is exactly what I would like to know more about. Are you saying that a less fancy saji knife for 500 bucks will cut identically as a 1000 usd one with fancy finishing? Or in other words, any R2 blade from a specific brand (given shape and profile are similar) should be more or less the same in cutting capability? If this is the case then I surely wouldn't look for the craziest aesthetics first and just pick one with a more practical handle etc.

Thanks!
 
Dan E said:
I feel SG2/R seems to be a pretty standard material, nothing special. Maybe it doesn’t need to, but for that price point I thought maybe something better can be found. Any thoughts from your side? I read about Koji Hara being popular (though I don’t like the look of the handles as much - at least of the knives available on some pages), or the Tanaka ironwood.
Click to expand...

What is standard or special is a matter of relative comparison. For people who have only used Moly-Van or VG10 knives, R2 is hardly "nothing special". Put bluntly, you don't need a budget of USD 1000 (+/-) to buy a very good knife, and I would not recommend to anyone who does not have much past experience with J-knives to spend that much as a starter. However, if that budget needs to be kept I'd suggest looking at Honkyakis as one option.
 
https://knivesandstones.us/collecti...nagashi-r2-damascus-gyuto-210mm-by-shiro-kamo
SG2/R2 has been pretty nice to sharpen and gets pretty sharp. Since most are heavily etched they are easy to clean up scratches from sharpening with some sandpaper and some etching. I have handled Itous' knives and a few T. Saji knives. They are good; but not functionally better that the Kamo above^^.

If you etched the Kamo more it would begin to resemble the others as the dammy pattern becomes more pronounced.

If that is the kind of steel you want to experiment with then I would also consider a new but already classic laser: Takamura HSPS Gyuto 210mm (8.2")
 
I looked at the Shiro Kamo R2 and Kato SG2 and they both seem to have a pretty good reputation in the forum. Knowing now that fancy claddings and nicer finishing is purely optical I might start from here.
 
I would think it makes more sense to worry about the blade than the handle. You can easily get a custom handle fitted to your exact design specification for $100-200, it's the blade that seems like the important part to me.
 
KenHash said:
Kobelco (Kobe Steel) developed and makes the powder steel R2. They sell some to Takefu Specialty Steels who resell it as SG2 (Super Gold 2). They are always the same thing.
Click to expand...
Takefu owns the patent on SG2, so it seems that they developed the steel.
 
I would suggest finding a Saji locally and handling one. I think they are gorgeous but they feel strange in my hand. I didnt love the shape of the handle or the balance of the blade. My tastes have also changed so much since I started buying knives that $1000.00 is way to high of a starting point in my opinion. If I were to spend that on a knife I would be going to a local maker and designing a knife with them. That being said its your money and I am sure they are great knives. If that money is not an issue then pick one up. You can always sell it later but it will help you decide what you want.
 
Larrin said:
Takefu owns the patent on SG2, so it seems that they developed the steel.
Click to expand...

That may very well be true as now I see some information suggesting that R2 and SG2 may be slightly different.

R2
Kobe Steel's steel materials. It is composed of approximately 1.45% carbon, 16% chromium, 3.2% molybdenum, 2% vanadium and 0.5% manganese, and a practical hardness of 62-65HRC. It is highly resistant to oxidation and wear, and is resistant to deformation. Abrasive is relatively easy with high-grade steel that guarantees optimum performance.

SG2 or SPG2 (MC63)
Takefu Special Steel. It is composed of approximately 1.35% carbon, 14.5% chromium, 2.8% molybdenum, 2% vanadium, 0.35% manganese, 0.10% nickel, and a practical hardness of 61-63HRC. Almost the same steel material as powder steel R2.
 
KenHash said:
That may very well be true as now I see some information suggesting that R2 and SG2 may be slightly different.

R2
Kobe Steel's steel materials. It is composed of approximately 1.45% carbon, 16% chromium, 3.2% molybdenum, 2% vanadium and 0.5% manganese, and a practical hardness of 62-65HRC. It is highly resistant to oxidation and wear, and is resistant to deformation. Abrasive is relatively easy with high-grade steel that guarantees optimum performance.

SG2 or SPG2 (MC63)
Takefu Special Steel. It is composed of approximately 1.35% carbon, 14.5% chromium, 2.8% molybdenum, 2% vanadium, 0.35% manganese, 0.10% nickel, and a practical hardness of 61-63HRC. Almost the same steel material as powder steel R2.
Click to expand...
It looks like the SG2 patent lists a chromium range of 14-15% Cr so perhaps they are skirting the patent with the higher Cr. Takefu is a processor of steel (rolling and bonding) rather than atomizing powder and producing ingots. It could be that Kobe makes the steel for them and thus have an agreement of some kind to make their own variant.
 
Larrin said:
It looks like the SG2 patent lists a chromium range of 14-15% Cr so perhaps they are skirting the patent with the higher Cr. Takefu is a processor of steel (rolling and bonding) rather than atomizing powder and producing ingots. It could be that Kobe makes the steel for them and thus have an agreement of some kind to make their own variant.
Click to expand...

I agree with your view. It makes sense.
 
thanks for the updates, they helped a lot. So at the end of the day SG2 and R2 are almost the same up to some minor differences.

To update on the discussion, I moved away from fancy knives following recommendations of many of you and ordered the Yoshikane black damascus (210mm) for a start. I read the performance of the knives are very good.

Best regards,
- Dan
 
Dan E said:
thanks for the updates, they helped a lot. So at the end of the day SG2 and R2 are almost the same up to some minor differences.

To update on the discussion, I moved away from fancy knives following recommendations of many of you and ordered the Yoshikane black damascus (210mm) for a start. I read the performance of the knives are very good.

Best regards,
- Dan
Click to expand...

Clearly you and I have very different definitions of "fancy knives". :D

Come back and let us know how you like it. Very nice looking knife!
 
Op, I see purchase was made, but for others in the future.

often times when 2 knives are being sold for different prices, there may be some fit and finish differences. Maybe one vendor has more specifications/ requests. Echizen blades often don’t have perfect fit and finish, but your higher priced blades would be done very well. Also hocho and eBay I find to be really overpriced, they are trying to get people who really don’t know what to look for, or even just google for a value knife.

also,r2:SG2 is amazing steel. People have different preferences, and really what gets good accolades here in the forums is rareity.(SG2 is not) ... but it’s probably the best steel for sharpening/edge holding/durability.(vg10 is very similar, albeit easier to mass produce) — the 1 downside is it doesn’t go well with natural stones, but synths, your golden.

For other damascus R2 damascus blades I’ve owned and enjoyed.
shiro kamo
Takamura uchigumo
Mr itou.
Op can also look at tanaka Ironwood.
 
Hi, thanks a lot for the info and the recommendations! I looked into the Shiro Kamo and it is still on my list as I read plenty of good things about it.

i would want the tanaka ironwood but I found it only for very high prices, seemingly due to rarity (?). If I ever encounter one for normal money I’d be more than happy to trigger
 
Last edited:
Dan E, can you link us to the knife u bought and the website? Super interested.

Would this be your first japanese knife? How do you plan to maintain/sharpen it?
 
1BD9A806-61EB-4383-8A12-830A691ACC8B.jpeg
 
coffeelover191919 said:
Dan E, can you link us to the knife u bought and the website? Super interested.

Would this be your first japanese knife? How do you plan to maintain/sharpen it?
Click to expand...

Steve was faster with the link - that’s exactly where I ordered.

i have a couple of weeks until the shipment arrives over where I live, so I guess it’s time now to absorb all the theory on how to sharpen :)

might take me a while to know what I’m doing.
 
Dan E said:
Steve was faster with the link - that’s exactly where I ordered.

i have a couple of weeks until the shipment arrives over where I live, so I guess it’s time now to absorb all the theory on how to sharpen :)

might take me a while to know what I’m doing.
Click to expand...
buy yourself a shapton 1000 (or just get the shapton 1000, 2000, 5000 (not really needed) while you're at it)

The shapton 1000 will sharpen everything but the dullest / damaged knives. I do not let my knives get under an 8/10 sharpness so it only takes me 5-10 mins on the shapton 1000 before finishing on the 2000. i rarely ever (1/20 times) use my shapton 5000 because i like the toothy edge of the shapton 2000. Its perfect for foods.
 
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