That which shall not be named

[tkern]

This thread is pretty amazing. You have new comers just looking to get started in a community being crapped upon. You have tried and true members be crapped upon because of their experience. There are egos galore being hurt.

 

[ecchef]

[video=youtube;y-vBJ8cS08U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-vBJ8cS08U[/video]

 

[Asteger]

I've casually followed KKF for a while and have noticed that these types of threads come up every month or two, with the same vitriol as a result. I think some of the old-timers forget that new people, even infrequent users, might be involved and basically can exhibit knee-jerk reactions at times as though 'here we go again' and the argument is against the same old foe. I don't know if it's ever been described this way, but I'd say a bit of 'thread rage' then results. Kind of ugly.

No problems with people having a debate, even an argument. Can't stand some of the rudeness, though. Old-hand or not, aren't there forum rules about stuff like this?

... your comparison is stupid .... You blaming Dave for this is stupid.... Do some research. Get a brain. ... In the meantime, get a brain. (Etc, etc....)

 

[RJD55]

I'm one of the newcomers to this forum reading this thread, this is actually my first post. I don't know either Dave or Mark and have no interest in getting sucked into the love or hate relationship with either that so many posters on this thread seem to have. I have purchased from CKTG but my real interest is in getting the product I want at a decent value.

I have purchased an Artifex from CKTG and it was a good value out of the box. It's definitely thick behind the edge and is a serviceable but not high performance knife. I also use a Watanabe and the Artifex grind is inferior, but it's also a lot cheaper at $75 than the Watanabe. However, the Artifex becomes a great value if you are willing to put in a little bit of effort to thin the blade. The AEB-L steel is not difficult to work with and thinning a blade is not a high skill task or that difficult with the right stone set. I will say that I've also thinned an Artifex in M390 steel and that it was a more difficult but still manageable project. If you are willing to put in the effort the Artifex becomes a very good knife with excellent steel at a very low price. If you want to pay more CKTG also offers in house lines with much better grinds at much higher prices, consumer can make their own choice.

I'm not sure I can relate to the fury about Mark's business ethics. The only concrete issue I saw in the thread was that Mark starting carrying product that Dave already carried but at a lower price. It seems to me that the Japanese suppliers have the right to expand their products to more retailers if they want and retailers have the right to include those products in their store. Dave may have done initial research on the product but that just means he gets to be first on the market with them, I don't see how he is entitled to any long term monopoly. Business is not a gentleman's club, this is just business.

My interest is as a consumer. Right now CKTG has an extensive collection of different knives from a wide range of small Japanese craftsman and large scale manufacturers at a decent price point. Their service has always been excellent for me. That said, in a year or several years another company will come along and offer better value than CKTG and most of the customers, including me, will shift to them. This is the way the competitive free market system works.

 

[labor of love]

I've casually followed KKF for a while and have noticed that these types of threads come up every month or two, with the same vitriol as a result. I think some of the old-timers forget that new people, even infrequent users, might be involved and basically can exhibit knee-jerk reactions at times as though 'here we go again' and the argument is against the same old foe. I don't know if it's ever been described this way, but I'd say a bit of 'thread rage' then results. Kind of ugly.

No problems with people having a debate, even an argument. Can't stand some of the rudeness, though. Old-hand or not, aren't there forum rules about stuff like this?

but really there were several people looking to cause disturbances as far back as page 3. every action has a reaction.

 

[Baby Huey]

No offense RJD55, but as another new member here I would have to say as your first post seems very suspect. Pardon me for jumping to conclusions, but coming in out of the blue as your first post and going into that much depth to explain and somewhat protect/advertise for said company seems to be a little farfetched if you ask me. Seems like you are pushing CKTG. Now though I only heard about this problem recently, it is not my battle but if you really created an account just to come push the products and troll this thread then that is just wrong.

Again if I am mistaken I apologize, but I doubt that I am.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Dam Huey, You're on a roll today. How many more rounds are you going to fire today? I'm half kidding but In the post above I think you're being a little too protective and a tad bit parnoid.

remember we're in America where you're susposed to be innocent before proven guilty. And even when you're guilty, everyone deserves a second chance. Dave will usually give a third and fourth until he blows, and when he does, he usually comes across as sharp as his knives.

Many on this site are justified in their contempt for CKTG, "it is what it is."

 

[RJD55]

Baby Huey - Disagreement is not trolling and there is nothing suspect about my post. I have no connection with Mark and CKTG except as an occasional customer. The total extend of my direct communication with Mark is a couple of email questions on availability of product. I'm not a supplier or employee and I don't do reviews for them, and I've never given a comment on any of their product pages. I am a user of some of his products (primarily the Artifex and some of the sharpening items) and I fail to see how a different viewpoint from the overboard bashing is somehow "just wrong". Let me repeat this again, I'm an actual user not just an "internet expert" that doesn't have any experience with the product.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

RJ. Some of us would like to welcome you to KKF. Some of the guys on this forum can be a little cantankerous at times but for most of the folks with a decent # of posts, you'll find honest feedback and lots of wisdom. I'm a little tired of this KKF CKTG hatfield and McCoy fued too, thus my reference to popcorn in one of my earlier post.

BTW, Huey's not a bad guy at all, he's just put his underwear on backwards today

 

[Baby Huey]

If I was wrong I apologize. I am mot a long time customer of either place. Guess just seeing the reactions it brings up in fellow members kinda gets to me. Along with a rough day at work. No offense intended though I think that saying that was pointless attached to what I said.

Welcome to KKF.

 

[RJD55]

Thank you for the welcome, I look forward to learning more about and from the community. Hopefully on less of a hot button issue. As an explanation I'm part of an older generation and while I recognize the "volatile " nature of internet forums I still have a hard time adjusting.

 

[Justin0505]

Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is

Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.

And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me

I'm one of the newcomers to this forum reading this thread, this is actually my first post. I don't know either Dave or Mark and have no interest in getting sucked into the love or hate relationship with either that so many posters on this thread seem to have. I have purchased from CKTG but my real interest is in getting the product I want at a decent value.

I have purchased an Artifex from CKTG and it was a good value out of the box. It's definitely thick behind the edge and is a serviceable but not high performance knife. I also use a Watanabe and the Artifex grind is inferior, but it's also a lot cheaper at $75 than the Watanabe. However, the Artifex becomes a great value if you are willing to put in a little bit of effort to thin the blade. The AEB-L steel is not difficult to work with and thinning a blade is not a high skill task or that difficult with the right stone set. I will say that I've also thinned an Artifex in M390 steel and that it was a more difficult but still manageable project. If you are willing to put in the effort the Artifex becomes a very good knife with excellent steel at a very low price. If you want to pay more CKTG also offers in house lines with much better grinds at much higher prices, consumer can make their own choice.

I'm not sure I can relate to the fury about Mark's business ethics. The only concrete issue I saw in the thread was that Mark starting carrying product that Dave already carried but at a lower price. It seems to me that the Japanese suppliers have the right to expand their products to more retailers if they want and retailers have the right to include those products in their store. Dave may have done initial research on the product but that just means he gets to be first on the market with them, I don't see how he is entitled to any long term monopoly. Business is not a gentleman's club, this is just business.

My interest is as a consumer. Right now CKTG has an extensive collection of different knives from a wide range of small Japanese craftsman and large scale manufacturers at a decent price point. Their service has always been excellent for me. That said, in a year or several years another company will come along and offer better value than CKTG and most of the customers, including me, will shift to them. This is the way the competitive free market system works.

Welcome! I don't think that anything that you've said is wrong, but just that you're missing a few things. Mark being a capitalist and selling an identical product that was popularized by someone else for less or even seeking to get exclusive rights to sell those products is a bit of a dick move, but not what causes people to get the pitch-forks and torches.
What really gets people in a burning kinda mood is Mark selling sub-par products and calling them premium. (like selling a stone that's NOT the JNS 1k as the JNS 1k). I think that some people would even tolerate that to some extent, because that's what we've come to expect from "bargain" deals in the US. However, I think that the final hard-line for most people is when Mark and his side-Ken attempt to manipulate and suppress the negative feedback while simultaneously seeding more bogus praise via shills and pet forum trolls. It's this attempt to invade or corrupt a community that many of us are very passionate about that creates a guttural and vicious response.

Also, this is a largely virtual community and industry that's based on trust and reputation far more than the general consumer market where customers take their trusted vendors "at their word" as well as on the voucher of the community. The standards are much higher here and any sign of poor quality product or anything other than complete honesty and impeccable, ridiculously good customer service can be a kiss of death.

All this talk of CKTG made me go back and check it out just to see what other new developments there might be and I came across a new line of Richmond knives named after the wavy line created by differentially HT'ing high carbon knives using clay and water.... and they're even supposedly made from blue #1 steel!
Normally the mizu-honyaki's that exhibit this are in the $1000+ price range, and those in blue #1 are pretty rare as it's a difficult steel to work, but this line starts at like 1/10th that price... hmmmm....
then I looked at the pictures and read a bit more carefully: "san mai" with a "real forged hamon" huh? :scratchhead:......LOL.
If this isn't a line designed to sucker people with some, but not enough knowledge, who are shopping based on specs, buzzwords, and price, then I don't know what is...

reminds me of this:
http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/china-istove-seize/

and this:
http://thechive.com/2013/08/28/chine...iar-28-photos/

 

[RJD55]

Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.

That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.

Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.

 

[brianh]

What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.

 

[Justin0505]

That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.

Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.

Yeah... and did you actually look at the pictures of the things? LOL, the "hamon" (which I'm guessing is just the cladding) is almost all the way down to the cutting edge. If that was actually the line where the hard and soft steel met in a mono-steel knife then the knife would have a very short life before you sharpened up into the soft steel. To anyone that actually knows what a good mizu-honyaki looks like, this is pretty laughably bad.

As for differential heat treat and clad blades, I don't think that the two are not completely mutually exclusive. AFAIK the really dramatic effect that Bill Burke is famous for in his "Hon warikomi" style comes from some pretty special HT.... but then again those are multi-thousand dollar customs from one of the greatest kitchen knife makers in the world... not a hundred buck special made by a mysterious "3rd generation bladesmith" to Mark's spec...

I might trust that something sold by him as Kleenex to actually be Kleenex, but something sold as "Richmond super ultra premium deluxe extra soft and strong face-tissues made from green materials" I'd suspect might just be worn out sheets of sandpaper... with holes in it.

What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.

The simple answer is NO. For the most part, if he's selling something like a Takeda, a Kikuichi, Shun, Victorinox, etc it's going to be the same as anywhere else, but maybe a few bucks cheaper. But where that get's a bit misleading is when the popular version sold on another site is actually made to that other site's spec.
For example the Gesshin knives that Jon sells are all made to Jon's specs and pass his QA, so even if CKTG where to sell a knife by the one of the same makers like Heji, it would not be the same knife. This has already happened with the Kato. The version of the knife popularized and sold by Maxim / JNS are custom for that vendor and not the same as what CKTG sells.

 

[Ruso]

When I joined this forum I could not imagine how much drama can it generate:-/ It reminds me of Bill Gates vs Hobbyists at Homebrew Computer Club story of the 70th.

 

[Asteger]

Maybe discussions of re-handles, grinds, and stones only go so far before people crave some action!

 

[maxim]

I think many of you miss the point here. And maybe forgot what happened

It is not becoase some sell product cheaper then us we are disappointed.

it is because deliberately name the product same names and hide it behind Meta data so in search results they come up first, even if product is not same !
Also clamming on forums that they are totally same and they sell them cheaper then his competitors.

I have to defend Dave a bit too, i remember what happened and how it happened maybe many of you forgot but it is maybe good reminder for all of us !

On KF there was some vendors that posted they links in EVERY EVERY new thread that was made by new member with they products ! Then when it was banned to do that he payed people to do it for him !
After Dave made a list of stone that he recommended First and best what he knew, the vendor made that SET of stones cheaper and called it also same name SET as Dave.

So it is not because he started to sell same stones cheaper, it is because he took the knowledge and research Dave did and just copy it. When he and Dave was very good Friends !!
And there is much more behind the scenes that you also dont know about

Can you imagine Some of our vendors here will start to act same way !!! Do you really want that here ????
In every new thread i will start post my links of my knives and stones and say they have to buy from me because i am cheaper

 

[RJD55]

Guys, what I've learned about the Richmond Hamon knife from your posts is that you can have a differential heat treat with a hamon and san mai. I've also learned that you don't seem to own or have any direct knowledge of the knife. The best of the internet is knowledgeable people sharing what they know and I think you have some real knowledge to offer, but when you just go on a hate rant none of that knowledge comes into play.

 

[RJD55]

Maxim - I understand that you consider Mark's business practices to be cutthroat and to have crossed the line. It's clear that you consider him to have betrayed a friendship.But it's also clear that Dave and others like yourself have used their position with this forum to foster a hate filled lynch mob mentality against a competitor. There isn't any high moral ground evident anywhere.

 

[Timthebeaver]

To a knowledgeable observer, those Hamon knives were created to mimic (expensive) Mizu-Honyaki blades - and, as pointed out in post #132, will be attractive to those who have done some rudimentary research and are led by buzzwords and steel hype.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Maxim - I understand that you consider Mark's business practices to be cutthroat and to have crossed the line. It's clear that you consider him to have betrayed a friendship.But it's also clear that Dave and others like yourself have used their position with this forum to foster a hate filled lynch mob mentality against a competitor. There isn't any high moral ground evident anywhere.

This is almost insulting in a way. I have my own free will. I have my own ability to look at things objectively. I have the ability to look at two sides of a story, and make my own choice based on my own morality. I don't know, or care about what the past history is between the members of this forum and Mark. All I know is what I've seen, and what I almost experienced myself first hand. THANKFULLY I did find this forum, and the good information presented here. Funny thing is, if it hadn't been for the pictures and video examples posted here...I might have believed the hype anyway. EVERYWHERE you go the Kool-Aid on the CKTG products is force fed, except here. Here, in its place is...what? A few vendors politely advertising their own wares in their own subforums? I'll take some ranting about the past (which to be honest seems to be 99% accurate...odd huh?), with honest answers and product descriptions over flat out lies and marketing hype any day.

How does that measure out on your set of 'moral ground scales'?

Understand also here, I'm not trying to be rude, but your defense of Mark and his products are honestly pretty sketchy. High moral ground? Assuming we as individual members of a forum don't have the ability to judge for ourselves in a clear minded fashion? Turning the issue back on the vendors in this forum...when NONE of the obviously ridiculous sales tactics used by 'the competitor' are used here?

Sketchy at best my friend.

 

[bahamaroot]

Cris you like to bash Mark and his forum but you don't mind using his forum for your personal gain, seems a little two faced. Do you post your opinions over there?

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Cris you like to bash Mark but you don't mind using his forum for your personal gain, seems a little to faced.

When was my last post on that forum? I joined there prior to joining this forum, and since I've learned the things I've learned, haven't posted since.

Aside from that...if you want to speak of 'gain' lol...you're talking to the wrong guy. I don't make money on these knives. The 210 gyuto I'm making right now is down to about $3/hr after materials, and still has a good bit of work left in polishing and handle finishing. I make them because I love making them, not for 'gain'.

...and to be honest, even if I DO post my knives on that forum (which I haven't since my suji...and have been debating how to proceed since)...its to share my work, not to support Mark or his business practices.

-ETA ~ Where did I bash his forum? The Kool-Aid I was speaking of is on a number of forums, not just his.

 

[bahamaroot]

When was my last post on that forum? I joined there prior to joining this forum, and since I've learned the things I've learned, haven't posted since...

You joined here in June and there in Aug and you visited that forum today. Your last post was Aug 29. Doesn't quite fit with what you just posted.

 

[ar11]

I really think this thread should be a sticky. So everytime C K T G pops up every 2 months people don't freak out and noobies get confused. In all honestly this thread cleared up a lot things for me.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

You joined here in June and there in Aug and you visited that forum today. Your last post was the end of Aug 29. Doesn't quite fit with what you just posted.

I just logged in to that forum to see when I posted last, you're 100% correct. Prior to that my last post was the 29th, as you said.

I joined here in June the FIRST time. I was banned within 10 minutes of making my first post for breaking the rules (which at the time I wasn't aware of). I then spent two months trying to contact Dave regarding my ban without success. I then found and joined CKTG (which in my introductory post I asked that if my post was out of line or against the rules...please don't ban me, due to my experience here), on the suggestion of some of the people I know outside of this forum. The day I joined I was in contact with Myron of Dream Burls to purchase a piece of Stefan's wood. He suggested I post pictures of the finished knife here, I told him I couldn't due to being banned. He talked to Dave, we worked out the issue, and I was allowed back on here. At that point I began to really learn about the things Mark does...and how they almost affected myself and the knives I make, along with how they've affected many others.

So yes...the story does match up.

Look...I pride myself on honesty and integrity, and don't mind being questioned regarding my actions. I don't hold any hard feelings towards you for questioning those things either. But if you have any doubts, talk to Dave, or even Myron. The facts are the facts.

 

[bahamaroot]

Cris I have no problem with you or care if you have dealings with Mark or his forum, I'm sure your a good guy. To be honest I find this whole Mark/Dave thing comical. I wasn't around when all this happened. I have bought things from Mark and from venders from this forum. I have gotten great service and products from them all. Most of the small business owners I have met in the past will smile and shake your hand and then stab you in the back as soon as you turn around. Just a fact of life. As long as I get good service for my dollar I'm happy. I think there is a lot more of playing both sides of the fence by a lot of members that would hate to admit it. I apologize for calling you out, really.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Cris I have no problem with you or care if you have dealings with Mark or his forum, I'm sure your a good guy. To be honest I find this whole Mark/Dave thing comical. I wasn't around when all this happened. I have bought things from Mark and from venders from this forum. I have gotten great service and products from them all. Most of the small business owners I have met in the past will smile and shake your hand and then stab you in the back as soon as you turn around. Just a fact of life. As long as I get good service for my dollar I'm happy. I think there is a lot more of playing both sides of the fence by a lot of members that would hate to admit it. Sorry for calling you out, really.

I can absolutely appreciate that, and no need for an apology. As I've said earlier in this thread...I don't know Dave very well, we haven't interacted much. I don't know Maxim or the other vendors pretty much at all. But from all I've seen the differences are pretty clear.

That's not to say that Mark is the devil on earth and every transaction with him is endangering your soul. I don't even go out of my way to damn the guy. But when points come up that touch on my experiences, I speak up. Add to that when RJD55 came on, defending Mark's behavior and accusing others here of the same behavior, again...I had to speak up.

I also know that a lot of the members here are members there. I don't read around there enough to know about whether they're playing both sides or not...but I can see how it might appear that way.