The “Introductory Box of Knives” Test-Drive Pattern

[mengwong]

Yesterday a friend casually mentioned he might be in the market for a new knife, asked if I knew anything about Globals…

… 24 hours later I have packed a sampler box of various shapes, lengths, heights, grinds, steels, handles, makers, and price points.

That got me wondering about the idea – an introductory “box of knives” – as a line of business. Is it something knife shops do? There are so many obvious obstacles I would not be surprised if it has never worked… the economics don’t make sense … the market isn’t huge … etc etc …

Still, it seems valuable to be able to “try before you buy” in a more structured, efficient way than BST catch/release and passarounds. Test driving a bunch of knives for a week or a month is better than just hefting something in a store. Assuming you even have a store near you that carries the range from Victorinox, Mac, Tojiro through to TF, Mazaki, indie Westerns etc.

Anyone know if this has been tried before?

 

[MarcelNL]

Not sure, yet when I bought my first serious knive I did take the time to shake hands with the likely contenders (having about the right shape and length). I know I would have loved to be able to test them at home.

 

[pavhav]

You must really like/trust this guy if you're sending a noob your Denka and Sicards.

 

[mengwong]

Exactly … My buddy knows how to sharpen, and he re-soldered my laser goniometer besides.

But when you don't go way back, how do you manage risk?

The user, by definition, doesn't quite know what they're getting into. So they won't want to spend on something speculative. Worst case, the resharpening costs on a dozen knives could exceed the cost of just buying one.

The only way I can imagine something like this working at all, is on a white-glove, introduction / invitation only kind of basis, like those Japanese restaurants where you have to be referred by existing customers. Then there is some protection against bad behaviour, because someone vouched for them.

And maybe the person doing the referring also covers the fee.

It becomes a gift of a luxury good, something special to get your friend who has everything. Your friend who cooks, but not professionally; who appreciates the importance of personal fit; probably the kind of friend who gets their clothes tailored, doesn't mind spending $500+ on a knife, and might end up a collector like so many on KKF.

So there's an opportunity for a knife shop to build a relationship with that kind of customer, with knife boxes at various price points customized to the buyer’s immediate interests. It feels like more of a home sales situation where the salesperson could give a knife skills lesson. $200 for a knife box for a month, half of it turns into store credit if you convert. Something like that.

Brick and mortar knife shops have got to be looking to differentiate vs online; creating repeat customers through local-only upmarket services feels like an obvious opportunity. Yet the in-store sales experience at premium j-knife shops can feel off-putting – I wish they would at least wait until my back was turned before wiping and oiling the blade where I’d touched it.

Long term though, the knife shop drops out of the picture and it’s just collectors sharing toys with friends.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Don't know about the business side of your post but that is very, very cool of you to do!

 

[Jovidah]

It's definitly a problem begging for a solution. You see it here on the forums too; so many people who come in who want to invest in 'their first good knife' but they have no clue what to buy, and it's hard to help them because they don't even know what their preferences are.
And there isn't really a good substitute for trying things yourself.
As to your current selection; I'm missing longer stuff... I can excuse lack of a 270 but no 240?!

 

[MarcelNL]

I do not understand why knife shops (the physical ones at least) would not want to invest in doing an introduction in basic knife knowledge and skills for new customers....I'm sure that could serve as a quick introductory helping folks to pick or at least enabling a somewhat informed decision.

(probably always still end up with someone buying a Denka as first knife after only ever owning a herder potato peeler)

 

[BrunofromBrazil]

Exactly … My buddy knows how to sharpen, and he re-soldered my laser goniometer besides.

But when you don't go way back, how do you manage risk?

The user, by definition, doesn't quite know what they're getting into. So they won't want to spend on something speculative. Worst case, the resharpening costs on a dozen knives could exceed the cost of just buying one.

The only way I can imagine something like this working at all, is on a white-glove, introduction / invitation only kind of basis, like those Japanese restaurants where you have to be referred by existing customers. Then there is some protection against bad behaviour, because someone vouched for them.

And maybe the person doing the referring also covers the fee.

It becomes a gift of a luxury good, something special to get your friend who has everything. Your friend who cooks, but not professionally; who appreciates the importance of personal fit; probably the kind of friend who gets their clothes tailored, doesn't mind spending $500+ on a knife, and might end up a collector like so many on KKF.

So there's an opportunity for a knife shop to build a relationship with that kind of customer, with knife boxes at various price points customized to the buyer’s immediate interests. It feels like more of a home sales situation where the salesperson could give a knife skills lesson. $200 for a knife box for a month, half of it turns into store credit if you convert. Something like that.

Brick and mortar knife shops have got to be looking to differentiate vs online; creating repeat customers through local-only upmarket services feels like an obvious opportunity. Yet the in-store sales experience at premium j-knife shops can feel off-putting – I wish they would at least wait until my back was turned before wiping and oiling the blade where I’d touched it.

Long term though, the knife shop drops out of the picture and it’s just collectors sharing toys with friends.

Perhaps a good solution is the referral system you shared! Maybe before you could actually get the knife box, there could be a basic knife knowledge class/course, and for you to actually be able to receive it you had to do a small test in regards to your knife knowledge. Something like, what is the propper way to store knives, whats the difference in maintenance from a stainless to a carbon knife. After usage how do you clean and get the knife ready to be stored... Something on that line! And the person signs a little responsability sheet and shares that responsability with the person that actually did the referral.

If you don't actually have a referral you could simply have to pay for the class and a small fee to be able to receive the box, appart from the other responsabilities and test you had to do if you had a referral.

 

[Delat]

It's a great idea, but as you said I don't see the economics working out for the target market. People curious about buying their first good knife are probably thinking around $200 or less.

From the retailer's side, 2-way shipping is going to be around $40. Then you have inventory out of pocket for at least a week or two. When the knives come back they have to refurbished, which at the very least means sharpening, possibly chip repair, and eventually thinning - all of which are manpower intensive and therefore costly. And your tester knives are a sunk cost, they're not viable for resale later except at massive discount.

So say you rent a knife for $10/week, you need to ship a box of at least 3 to make it worthwhile, so cost to the consumer is $70 just to test used knives (that might be well-removed from their new state in terms of performance and appearance) when your whole budget is $200. When the 3 knives come back chipped and damaged, if it takes at least an hour to repair all three then as a retailer you've made zero profit and probably lost money on the exchange.

Unfortunately just doesn't seem appealing from either end, retailer or consumer. An alternative is something Bernal does with a box of used trade-ins. I think you pay a fixed price and they grab a random knife out of 3 categories of boxes and ship one to you.

 

[BrunofromBrazil]

It's a great idea, but as you said I don't see the economics working out for the target market. People curious about buying their first good knife are probably thinking around $200 or less.

From the retailer's side, 2-way shipping is going to be around $40. Then you have inventory out of pocket for at least a week or two. When the knives come back they have to refurbished, which at the very least means sharpening, possibly chip repair, and eventually thinning - all of which are manpower intensive and therefore costly. And your tester knives are a sunk cost, they're not viable for resale later except at massive discount.

So say you rent a knife for $10/week, you need to ship a box of at least 3 to make it worthwhile, so cost to the consumer is $70 just to test used knives (that might be well-removed from their new state in terms of performance and appearance) when your whole budget is $200. When the 3 knives come back chipped and damaged, if it takes at least an hour to repair all three then as a retailer you've made zero profit and probably lost money on the exchange.

Unfortunately just doesn't seem appealing from either end, retailer or consumer. An alternative is something Bernal does with a box of used trade-ins. I think you pay a fixed price and they grab a random knife out of 3 categories of boxes and ship one to you.

I was thinking more as a in store thing, and as a way to help people choose. Not really its economic viability. Maybe get 5 knives, different profiles, maybe all gyutos, a WH a more laser one, stainless and carbon... Just to help people choose, I too don't think its economically a awesome idea, but as a way to help the customer choose and understand more what he is buying I think its awesome. It's like a makers passaround but made by the store.

Before I had more friends that are into knives I could only try different profiles and steels by buying them, and thats not awesome haha

 

[Delat]

I was thinking more as a in store thing, and as a way to help people choose. Not really its economic viability. Maybe get 5 knives, different profiles, maybe all gyutos, a WH a more laser one, stainless and carbon... Just to help people choose, I too don't think its economically a awesome idea, but as a way to help the customer choose and understand more what he is buying I think its awesome. It's like a makers passaround but made by the store.

Before I had more friends that are into knives I could only try different profiles and steels by buying them, and thats not awesome haha

In-store demos are great idea. Some of the higher-end chains do this, like Sur La Table.

 

[mengwong]

The box has gone to my friend!

Here’s some of what else was in it. Not pictured, a deba and a honesuki too.

Thanks all for the thoughts on the economics. I’ve been reading about Rent The Runway and thinking about that business model as an inspiration…

The “keep it as long as you want” aspect, similar to the early days of Netflix DVDs-by-mail has some merit – at some point you can deem a knife paid for!

On the flip side there are some characteristics of the sharpening-by-mail service:

Sharpening by mail:
Korin, Knife Aid: $15/knife = $180/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months
Seisuke, Precision: $5/knife = $60/yr for a set of 2 every 2 months

 

[Gshep91]

The closest thing I can think of is a clothing subscription I had a while ago. I forgot the company name but it was all clothes from Nordstrom.

A week before it shipped you could see what they were going to send you and opt out/replace stuff if needed so it wasn’t a waste of time. I paid like $50 “shipping” and then got to try on all the clothes, pay for what I wanted and then ship the other stuff back. The original shipping fee went towards the purchase price.

I’d assume something kind of similar would work for a knife business. Talk to the customer, figure out basic wants (knife size/rough shape/price range) and then collect some sort of deposit. Have them ship back what they don’t want to keep.

You’d have to have some kind of rule for damages/theft but you’d have their CC info from the deposit

 

[mengwong]

Noting a demand point

decisions decisions! (anyone want to loan me their entire collection for a few months while i work this out! lol)

 

[Naftoor]

Seems like an awesome idea for a friend; only comment is that you have a “keep dry” warning on all of the carbon stickers but the TF, I imagine you may want a similar warning on the super blue

 

[Corradobrit1]

The box has gone to my friend!

Here’s some of what else was in it. Not pictured, a deba and a honesuki too.

View attachment 275022

Thanks all for the thoughts on the economics. I’ve been reading about Rent The Runway and thinking about that business model as an inspiration…

The “keep it as long as you want” aspect, similar to the early days of Netflix DVDs-by-mail has some merit – at some point you can deem a knife paid for!

On the flip side there are some characteristics of the sharpening-by-mail service:

So what did he like and dislike in the care package? Would be good to hear feedback from a relative novice, uncontaminated by KKF biases.

 

[mengwong]

“It was super blue, now it’s super red!”

 

[mengwong]

Another demand point

I would love some recommendations on cheaper knives I could get to to try different combinations of factors to understand what I want.

 

[NickMinton]

So basically Warby Parker for knives?

 

[David R]

Agree there is demand for this. Managing the risk would be the challenge. Some people will damage knives and then want to argue about whether or not they caused the damage. Rather than arguing, you would almost have to assume some damage and factor that into the rental price. And people saying they shipped when they didn't. And other issues.

I would love to get a box of knives to try for a week or two. What would people pay to try some knives for a week? $100?

 

[Jmast]

Another demand point

This would be amazing. You totally covered my issues coming into this world. If I could I would love to be able to just get a really nice custom knife and be done (likely that I’d actually be done is probably non-existent) but I don’t even know what I would want in one. Having something like this where you could try different styles would be super useful.

 

[mengwong]

Drawing inspiration from the world of bespoke tailoring,

New business model: send Kipp a video demo of how you hold a knife and cut food. He in turn makes the perfect knife to suit your tastes.

By watching someone in action I can tell what would work for the user in regards to the following: edge profile, spine angle, weight distribution, handle shape and size, machi/neck size, heel height, grind bias, edge thickness... there's probably more, that's just off the top of my head.

I've asked a few customers to do it. Precisely zero have actually gone ahead and done it.

This could also be the role of a good knife shop…

Either way, though, the customer needs to have first leveled up to a certain point for this to even make sense!

 

[chefwp]

The last time I tried to help a friend the conversation ended like this:

Me: so anyway, I think one of those those choices would be a great intro into to higher-end knives.
Him: which one can I put in the dish washer?
Me: I'm sorry, we can't be friends anymore.

 

[bsfsu]

I lend out my some of my personal knives to pros and home cooks who come into the shop.

I don't have a massive collection to choose from and some knives I don't lend out (Shig's and Mizuno's and some others) but I am slowly adding to the shop collection of test knives. I need a bigger store so I can set up a chopping board for customers .

 

[Benuser]

It's definitly a problem begging for a solution. You see it here on the forums too; so many people who come in who want to invest in 'their first good knife' but they have no clue what to buy, and it's hard to help them because they don't even know what their preferences are.
And there isn't really a good substitute for trying things yourself.

Sure. The problem is, as with a lot of things in life, the first impression is often totally wrong. It says more about what people are used to than what they're actually handling. A slight difference in balance point may already be enough to let people feel uncomfortable. Just trying for a few cuts won't change about it. If I may refer to my own experience: with by far the most knives it took a few days or even weeks of use before I only started to know and get used to it. Often with a few sharpenings, slight correction of the geometry, adapting my grip, fine tuning some technique. Made me decide to get new knives only one by one, and use it for some time for every task, even the less appropriate, to explore its possibilities and limitations. I you see someone cutting crazy old cheese with a honesuki or yo-deba: it's me with a new knife. As for novices, I see no other option than suggesting a moderately priced middle-of-the-road one. I don't see how letting a novice choose between more knives could be helpful. My guess is the choice will be based, consciously or not, on somewhat less relevant factors: a nice red handle, an engraving or a familiar feeling. Not about profile, geometry, length, weight, balance, steel, easy sharpening, edge retention and other factors that really matter.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

Despite being having an overpriced selection, I enjoy Tosho a lot because I can try their selections in store and actually do test cuts with them. It was also the only way I was able to hold Fujiyama's and Jiro's in person.

 

[Jovidah]

I think that's really the hard part about implementing this: if you wanted to do this properly, people would have to try knives for a longer time. That really creates a lot of problems that make the whole concept problematic to implement.

I have to admit I'm jealous of people who had knife stores closeby where they could try quality knives in person. Pretty much everything I had to buy without ever seeing it up close or holding it in person.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The problem with this entire concept is there are way too many knives and way too few stones.

 

[mengwong]

Could one create low-cost life-size mockups in wood or 3D printed plastic just to give a sense of the gross mechanics and shape and weight feel?

 

[Jovidah]

The weight is going to be off massively. So it might work (poorly) for some aspects like length or profile, but for weight and balance I'd say it's pretty useless.