The Washita Thread

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Once while visiting Hot Springs for stones, I was southeast of town and notice a mine.. Pulled in, and struck up a conversation with the miners.
There were several very large boulders, say 3x4', laying there, and I asked... They told me that they were too fine of use..Said they were Boulder.
I guess boulder was a very fine particle size, past hard arkansas.
 
I was thinking about the flint knapping part of this thread, and realized that I have a bunch of flint called Georgetown blue...
Does anyone know if flint has ever been used to sharpen razors, knives, etc.???
I could easily take a chunk to the Houston Gem and Mineral , cut it to size and shape for a novel stone, maybe suitable for
use in sharpening??
 
I think Dan's originally bought out Indian Mountain.

Other producers of Arks off the top of my head past and present.
Washita Mountain, Indian Mountain, Arkansas Oilstones, Arkansas Oilstone Co, Smith's, Natural Whetstone Co, Pike Norton.

Probably forgetting some. A much smaller list when it comes to the vintage Washita's though.
OK
The one I left out is The Carborundum Company.

So for vintage Washita's I have..
Carborundom Co
Pike-Norton
Arkansas Oilstone Co

More?
 
I was thinking about the flint knapping part of this thread, and realized that I have a bunch of flint called Georgetown blue...
Does anyone know if flint has ever been used to sharpen razors, knives, etc.???
I could easily take a chunk to the Houston Gem and Mineral , cut it to size and shape for a novel stone, maybe suitable for
use in sharpening??
I guess its a form of microcrystalline quartz,. Same thing as jasper? Should work.
 
OK
The one I left out is The Carborundum Company.

So for vintage Washita's I have..
Carborundom Co
Pike-Norton
Arkansas Oilstone Co

More?

Carborundum Co. were rebranded Pike stones (Can't remember where I saw that but I think probably from a post of Tim's on B&B.)

Same was probably done by a few other companies... here's a 'Snow Mountain Washita' from what was probably the UK's largest whetstone company back in the day - A.B. Salmen:

Screenshot 2022-02-02 021033.jpg


Dunno much about this, but probably also a P-N stone I imagine:

Screenshot 2022-02-02 020912.jpg


Apart from Pike the only other company mentioned in the 1890 survey for the marketing of Washitas is George Chase in New York, who had been producing Arkansas whetstones for at least 40 years apparently. And obviously that was written slightly before Pike purchased any Washita quarries, so the two companies were buying the same stone.

Screenshot 2022-02-02 022031.jpg




[Pics in this post not mine unfortunately!]
 
Carborundum Co. were rebranded Pike stones (Can't remember where I saw that but I think probably from a post of Tim's on B&B.)

Same was probably done by a few other companies... here's a 'Snow Mountain Washita' from what was probably the UK's largest whetstone company back in the day - A.B. Salmen:

View attachment 163621

Dunno much about this, but probably also a P-N stone I imagine:

View attachment 163622

Apart from Pike the only other company mentioned in the 1890 survey for the marketing of Washitas is George Chase in New York, who had been producing Arkansas whetstones for at least 40 years apparently. And obviously that was written slightly before Pike purchased any Washita quarries, so the two companies were buying the same stone.

View attachment 163623



[Pics in this post not mine unfortunately!]
So Carborundum didn't cut and finish their own. I thought they would have been well equipped to do so, but I could also see them rebranding.

George Chase is interesting. I will see if I can find out anything about them.
 
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So Carborundum didn't cut and finish their own. I thought they would have been well equipped to do so, but I could also see them rebranding.

George Chase is interesting. I will see if I can find out anything about them.

Good question actually... someone had done some research and found that they were buying Pike stone, but I can’t remember if they were cutting it themselves - as you say they might well have just been buying the raw rock. I’ll try to dig out where I read about it...
 
I have an old Washita from Arkansas Oil Stone Co. I don't know much about the company history unfortunately.
It must be some what vintage though because because they recommended coal oil or kerosene as a lubricant.

48678512057_b7a0033e23.jpg
https://flic.kr/p/



It's a slow and fine Washita.

Whish I knew how many company's were mining and producing Washita's through the years.
Cotedupy do you have any idea, anyone?

I don’t know anything about the company I’m afraid, but certainly visually it could happily be the same stone as P-N versions. And your description as being slightly finer and slower than modern Washitas / soft arks would probably match too I imagine...
 
What a dude!!

This is what a modern plane sharpening jig looks like:

View attachment 161718

Sharpening in woodworking is diverse... some freehand... some use jigs... some use machines (Tormek)... some mix approaches (e.g. primary grinding on a Tormek, finishing freehand or with a jig). What seems fairly commonly shared in the community is that sharpening gets in the way of fun. Not many woodworkers do woodworking as an excuse to sharpen plane blades and chisels!!

Stanley has left a legacy of designs that have been updated by various modern woodworking tools manufacturers (e.g. Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen). As a result, many 'standard' sized plane blades are just over 2":

View attachment 161719

... of course... there are wider and narrower planes.


Could you sharpen at an angle to fit the plane on the stone? Sure! If you are a good freehand sharpener. Controlling angles on two... planes... ( 🧐 ) makes the process more difficult and fiddly. You have to focus on keeping the bevel at the correct angle whilst moving on a skew. Not impossible, but more difficult. You also clearly can't use a sharpening jig properly at an angle. Most jigs are on fixed rollers!

Again, my impression is that modern woodworkers see sharpening as a means to an end. Narrow stones (<< 2") will be a frustration for people in a hurry. You can work with smaller stones, several millimetres doesn't matter... but the bigger the gap, the more frustrating!

Similarly... depending on the angle of the plane and the design of the sharpening jig, you can lose 50-100mm of stroke. Longer stones are more luxurious! It is nicer doing relaxed long controlled strokes than a frenzy of short ones!
For anything 2 inches or less I use my Worksharp 3000. It will sharpen a chisel in a couple of minutes. My Stanely Jack planes blades are too big and need to be done on the Worksharp manually. I can flatten a chisel back fairly fast.
 
Here's a follow-up post to my one above, and I'm afraid it will be based even more on conjecture and hunch than the previous.

A question that's the basis of some of the conversation on this thread and elsewhere, is this:

And the old survey lists more mines, it's a tangled mess for me. More mines than manufactures for sure and at times hard to say if they where mining arks or washita's.


To what extent can we consider Washitas and Soft Arkansas stones as being the same thing? Can any strict differentiation actually be made?

The whetstone quarries of Hot Springs are all found in together in quite a small geographical area, and they’re all pulling the same type of rock - novaculite - out of the ground. But geological formations don’t happen in neat, well-defined boxes, so that millions of years later someone can put a label on a sharpening stone and sell it as one thing or the other. They happen on a spectrum.

---

Let's start by looking at a couple of interesting stones owned by members on B&B. These are both labelled Pike Soft Arkansas, the first is notably quite translucent with a SG of 2.55, the second I don't know but I'd guess a little less:

20211024_212611.jpg


20210923_173703.jpg




Now a labelled Pike Lily White of mine, also fairly translucent, though the SG is lower at 2.36. This is admittedly quite an unusual Washita, but visually these three stones are peas in a pod, the pores and patterns on the surface are strikingly similar:

39BD02D0-EFC8-423A-BAF2-4355F8791D26.jpeg


---

So why are Pike selling stones that I would bet my bottom dollar are the same, as two different things?

The charitable answer might be that they too recognise the blurred lines of definition in geological formations, but use their years of expertise and experience to evaluate hardness, porosity and specific gravity, in order to determine what stones are Washitas, and what are Soft Arkansas.

The less charitable answer though might recognise that Pike were undeniably superb at reading and dictating the market for their products. And that in the late 19th Century had bought a number (all?) of the old Washita quarries, as well as George Reynolds - probably the only other company who were producing them. And so frankly Pike could sell whatever they want, as whatever they want, depending on what they thought might make the most money.

Here’s a very interesting 19th century advertisement for Pike oilstones:

CBF88DBF-9FCA-4F45-818E-3BB4BFE0389C.jpeg


I’ve posted that page before here, but until now I hadn’t noticed that Soft Arkansas stones are conspicuous in their absence. Though by 1905 a Pike pamphlet does mention them, and notes they 'generally sell at about one-third less price than Hard Arkansas‘. Which still makes them just a little bit more expensive than even Lily White or Rosy Red Washitas. Could it be that the entire idea of a ‘Soft Arkansas’ whetstone was simply an invention of Pike’s, after acquiring the Sutton quarries, in order to ride on the coat tails of the high prices and demand for ‘Hard Arkansas’ stones?*

At the end of my post above is a lineup pic of the old Washitas I have atm, which were all found in either the UK or Aus:

IMG-4866.jpg


I have no doubt that all of these stones were originally sold as 'Washitas'; the name had considerable cachet and market recognition in the UK, and it is still far more common to find old Washitas in the UK than it is in the US. But might the same stones have been sold as something else back in the states?

I don't know the answer to these questions. This is all speculation.

---

I received an exciting delivery today, this is the first labelled Soft Arkansas stone I have ever had or used:

CD0CFA7D-2A5F-425D-968E-FE99364F4118.jpeg


Can you guess why I bought it? Pretty huh! The 'holder' there actually turned out to be the top of the box, and it told me that this is soft ark produced by:

IMG-4985.JPG


Global recognition no less! Colour me tantalised...**

So obviously I'm going to compare it some Washitas. Just to emphasise - this isn't a new stone that has been sold as a Washita - it's positioning itself firmly in the Soft Ark camp. It's also a sample size of one, so we're not in particularly scientific territory here. Nevertheless I'm interested to see how deep the familial resemblance runs, especially as I said, because this is the first time I've used a Soft Ark. These stones are arranged in descending order of specific gravity, and when I measured them today the LW and No.1 actually surprised me a little, as in my mind they were both a bit higher, but there you go.

L to R: Pike Lily White (2.36), Washita (2.30), Pike-Norton No.1 (2.10), Natural Hones Soft Ark (2.09), Washita (2.08):

DBA182BD-CD51-4C80-8208-CB3AD2EFA9B1.jpeg


Obviously here I've chosen Washitas 3 and 5 because they have almost identical SG readings to the Soft Ark, so if the distinction is as blurry as some of what I've said above might suggest, then we should be able to see a fairly strong similarity between them. Washitas 1 and 2 I've chosen because their SG is at the higher end of the scale - to see if the soft ark is more similar to the low SG Washitas, than they are to the higher ones.

---

Well first up - the Soft Ark is noticeably softer than a Washita, it takes no time at all to lap. When done the surface feels similar-ish, though slightly grittier, sandier. I'm actually a little surprised it's as different as it is.

Washita 1 (Pike LW) is a very fine example, it works quite fast for a fine stone, but it doesn’t have a big range. It doesn’t do super-quick and coarse metal removal like more typical examples.

Washita 2 (which I found at the weekend here is Aus) is a superb stone. With noticeably larger, more visible pores than the first. This stone has a big range and is seriously fast with pressure. Right up there with my favourite Washitas I've had.

Washita 3 (P-N No.1) is a very good stone also, it has quite a large range though not as fast as the above. Finishes surprisingly fine considering the SG.

The NHI Soft Ark (4) is quite clearly a different stone from the Washitas. It feels as much like a Hindostan as it does a Washita. It's a very fast stone, and slurries quite heavily in almost no time, but doesn't finish nearly as fine as the Washitas. Overall it’s not a million miles away in terms of use, but there’s no way you’d confuse them. In a funny way this stone feels most similar to Washita 2, which I think is a very old stone.

Washita 5 is very similar to 3, though it’s a little coarser. 3 and 5 I would consider as quite typical Norton era Washitas. Very nice stone.

---

I don't know if or what any of that might say. Except that there are some Soft Arks that are notably different from old Washitas. This stone is considerably softer than the Washitas with an identical SG, and a lot of its speed is coming from slurry. But it's similar enough to bear comparison.

There is certainly something special about old Washitas, but it’s by no means inconceivable that other quarries and companies apart from P-N have at some point dug up the same kind stone. So I can't really conclude anything more revolutionary than saying that I think a Washita is a hard version of a soft ark. Or a porous version of a hard ark. And how and where those distinctions are drawn probably just depends on who's cutting it up, and putting it in neat boxes.

---

* I could probably get a better idea of whether this possibility has any legs or not by reading through Griswold again. I may do that later...

** Anyone heard of this company? Considering the breadth of their alleged market penetration they have curiously little interenet presence...
 
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The whetstone quarries of Hot Springs are all found in together in quite a small geographical area, and they’re all pulling the same type of rock - novaculite - out of the ground. But geological formations don’t happen in neat, well-defined boxes, so that millions of years later someone can put a label on a sharpening stone and sell it as one thing or the other. They happen on a spectrum.
This is the conclusion that I've come to.

I think of the term 'Washita' as a grading/marketing term without a hard scientific definition. It would be interesting to talk to Dan or other professional geologists about these deposits. I would think that the miners would get good feedback on how to grade them while they were cutting and preparing them.

Your comments on the soft Arkansas matches my experience on the modern stone marked soft that I recently tried.

Great post
 
So you are in Texas?? Otherwise the Georgetown flint is not well known... My brother knows a guy who has literally tons of Georgetown, and I have helped him collect several times.. Lots of fun.
Ha close, just up north a bit. Nah just during my research phase that came up as one of the best typed of knapping flint. 🙂 Too bad not much fossicking in my area in terms of usable whetstones...

I know @cotedupy was testing other types of stones. Have you tried Hornstone? I was reading up on that a little. Sounds kind of promising.
 
Have you tried Hornstone? I was reading up on that a little. Sounds kind of promising.
I have some hornfels if that's what you mean. My take is that hornfels can have as much variety as slate. The hornfels that I have is contact metamorphosed pierre shale and is very hard and fine. I suspect that it doesn't have a lot of silica in it(read slow). Interesting stone though.
 
The less charitable answer though might recognise that Pike were undeniably superb at reading and dictating the market for their products. And that in the late 19th Century had bought a number (all?) of the old Washita quarries, as well as George Reynolds - probably the only other company who were producing them. And so frankly Pike could sell whatever they want, as whatever they want, depending on what they thought might make the most money.

I can tend to be quite cynical when it comes to marketing. ;)

Very interesting posts! What is in a name? Like you say... the geography and geology overlap substantially. Even when they dont... does novaculite mined from another location (Turkey) mean it is not novaculite? No! The spectrum of density, porosity and grain size give ample room to grade the stones and attach arbitrary labels.

It might be interesting to try and track the marketing to see where Washita and Arkansas marketing peak, trough and overlap. Maybe over the decades of use, popularity it is correlated with market activity and brand recognition... maybe it is correlated with mine mergers and acquisitions?
 
I don't know if I should put this here or the combo thread. But I just scored a nice boxed Norton India/soft ark.

View attachment 163802

Ah nice! Funnily enough I was just looking at a contemporary Norton catalogue and noticed that they still make them and thought I might try to find if there’s a seller in Aus. Sounds like a great stone, and it’d be interesting to see if Soft Arks from top companies like Norton or Dan’s are a bit different / harder / more ‘Washita-like’ than my new one.

They also still produce soft/translucent combis. Which would probably be pretty nifty for razors...
 
This is the conclusion that I've come to.

I think of the term 'Washita' as a grading/marketing term without a hard scientific definition. It would be interesting to talk to Dan or other professional geologists about these deposits. I would think that the miners would get good feedback on how to grade them while they were cutting and preparing them.

Your comments on the soft Arkansas matches my experience on the modern stone marked soft that I recently tried.

Great post

Ah cheers! Certainly would be interesting to hear what Dan thought about it, especially in regards to the stones that (I believe) they occasionally sell as Washitas, and how they differ from their Soft Arks.

Anyone wanna ping him an email...
 
Ah cheers! Certainly would be interesting to hear what Dan thought about it, especially in regards to the stones that (I believe) they occasionally sell as Washitas, and how they differ from their Soft Arks.

Anyone wanna ping him an email...

They do it straight off of the density measurements

Washita is 2.25 or less
Soft is 2.25-2.3
Hard is 2.3-2.45
Blacks and translucents are 2.5+

I don't know what happens if they are between 2.45 and 2.5. maybe they round up the 2.47s and whatever.
https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/
Screenshot_20220203-105200.png
 
I have some hornfels if that's what you mean. My take is that hornfels can have as much variety as slate. The hornfels that I have is contact metamorphosed pierre shale and is very hard and fine. I suspect that it doesn't have a lot of silica in it(read slow). Interesting stone though.
Hah well I was watching some flint knapping video and he said it was "hornstone". Tried looking it up came with sparse results and "hornsfel" popped up so I'm not sure if those are the same? The peice the guy had looked very homogeneous, but yeah not 100% what type of stone it even was, and had to do something else. So that cut that short.
 
Ah cheers! Certainly would be interesting to hear what Dan thought about it, especially in regards to the stones that (I believe) they occasionally sell as Washitas, and how they differ from their Soft Arks.

Anyone wanna ping him an email...
I'm thinking that a walking tour through the mine sites would be the way to go.
 
They do it straight off of the density measurements

Washita is 2.25 or less
Soft is 2.25-2.3
Hard is 2.3-2.45
Blacks and translucents are 2.5+
Interesting that the Washitas are lower density than the softs, but our experience is that the Washitas are generally finer cutting. I realize that this is how Dan's grades them, and does not represent all stones sold as soft, or Washita for that matter.
 
Interesting that the Washitas are lower density than the softs, but our experience is that the Washitas are generally finer cutting. I realize that this is how Dan's grades them, and does not represent all stones sold as soft, or Washita for that matter.

Washitas to softs is kind of like coticules to Belgian blues. A good washita/coticule has a ton more range compared to a soft/bbw. Capable of behaving like a lower grit and hogging material, but also capable of finishing like a higher grit if you ease off the pressure and burnish it a little. I'll throw some ballpark numbers out for some stones that are in my collection. I recognize there are vast differences from stone to stone and yada yada, and we can't make generalizations and no two stones are the same. But let's just pretend that it won't piss off the sharpening gods too much if we spitball some numbers for illustrative purposes based on some actual specimens in my collection.

A good coticule can cover a range from 1500-8k synthetic. I consider them to be the be all and end all for mid range razor work. A bbw might be 2k-4k, slower and not capable of finishing as fine. I wouldn't use one for razors but they are great for finishing knives.

I wouldn't normally use soft arks or washitas for razors. But I do use them for knives and tools a lot. A washita (in my mind) should be able to do work from about 500-2k. Whereas a soft ark is basically like a slow 1000 grit stone. And that's it. Kind of boring by itself but I like them for touching up apexes. I have about a dozen little soft Ark pocket stones stashed all over my house kitchen, work kitchen, basement, toolboxes, etc. A hard ark is basically an 8k stone (unless you lap it very coarse and then it can cut like anything down to a 500 grit diamond plate for a little bit).

I don't exactly know how all this relates to density. Definitely they haven't always done it strictly based off of density, or location of the quarry, or anything else really over the years. So it's cool when we are able to match the advertisements and boxes and stones. I would be interested to try a Dan's washita if I can get my hands on one one day and see how it compares to the 100+ year old ones and the ones from the 1960s and 70s.
 
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