Tiramisu Fujiwara Denka vs Maboroshi

[sliceanddicebaby]

I sharpen my knives to the absolute limit with Jnats, and Denka has at least equal sharpness compared to Maboroshi and keeps it for much longer.

Nothing stopping people from getting their knives reprofiled and ground to their preference, but you will never get the edge retention of Denka. Also Denka are typically forged with more core steel and thicker. So unless you can add steel to the knife, you won’t be able to reach Denka performance by thinning your Maboroshi.

Firstly, I asked what was different besides the edge retention. I don't understand how what you say translates to better performance.

How can you say that the denka has "at least equal sharpness compared to mab" when you're polishing to the limit with Jnats (10k+). White 1 will absolutely take a sharper edge than AS at that level of refinement.

It's like making a sand castle cone shape with fine sand vs coarse sand, you're going to get a more refined structure with the former because of the latter's larger stones. Same with carbide size and steel.

All things equal, the theoretical limit of sharpness for W1 is much higher than AS, so what exactly do you mean by "sharpness" if not edge refinement?

Also, if you have a stainless clad knife with an adequate amount of core steel, how does having more of said core steel change the performance? Cutting feel, I can maybe understand - but in what way does having say, 30% more core steel make a knife cut better?

Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality.

And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.

I'm well aware TF is too busy making swords and stuff to forge most knives. At best I'd get Sada to do the heat treat. In any case, I would still like the toucou mark for fun. Same with the kanji.

Interesting you think chiseled kanji is "tacky AF" when the kanji stamps on TFs knives don't always come out at uniform depth and look even worse. I wonder if you think that about Hiroshi Kato or Shigefusa marks

 

[MarcelNL]

I wonder what it is that makes you discuss wether WS is better than AS AFTER having bought a Denka? Is it trying to convince yourself that AS is better or trying to justify buying a new Mab, fear of losing out on anything, just trying to understand.

Several folks here have used both, if they say Denka outperforms a Mab, I'm inclined to believe them especially as they have quite a bit of experience, and they do not defend the one knife they have.

My personal observation, with little comparison to go on, is that AS makes for a different sharpness than Swedish or WS steel ad edge retention is far better. I usually take my knifes to 12K (SP), just because I can, not that they need it for most jobs.

BTW: the Shigefusa knives do also not (all?) have hand chiselled Kanji, and I wonder if the Hinoura Nakiri I have is stamped or not.

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

I wonder what it is that makes you discuss wether WS is better than AS AFTER having bought a Denka? Is it trying to convince yourself that AS is better or trying to justify buying a new Mab, fear of losing out on anything, just trying to understand.

Several folks here have used both, if they say Denka outperforms a Mab, I'm inclined to believe them especially as they have quite a bit of experience, and they do not defend the one knife they have.

My personal observation, with little comparison to go on, is that AS makes for a different sharpness than Swedish or WS steel ad edge retention is far better. I usually take my knifes to 12K (SP), just because I can, not that they need it for most jobs.

BTW: the Shigefusa knives do also not (all?) have hand chiselled Kanji, and I wonder if the Hinoura Nakiri I have is stamped or not.

Yeah some shigs are stamped. I haven't handled one with stamps before though.

Well, my initial question was should I keep my denka that I like or sell it and get a mab built to my personal specs (longer, thicker, with red yo handle and chiseled kanji). I would like people's input on what I'd be trading if I were to "downgrade" from the denka to a mab.

I'm not trying to defend my knife or discredit @lemeneid. I'm asking this question because I'm genuinely interested in trading my denka in for a mab if that would give me a better knife for my needs.

The point of the steel discussion was to logically piece together how @lemeneid gets to his conclusions: how does AS get just as sharp as white, how does having more core steel make a knife perform better, etc.

 

[JDC]

Sounds like a demystify thread

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Sounds like a demystify thread

I read the dumpster fire of a toyamanabe vs TF thread and have adjusted my hopes of demystification accordingly.

 

[Qapla']

And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.

Certainly you could ask them to inscribe "TFTFTF" in romaji instead?

OP: Whichever knife you choose, it'd be cool to see pictures of the knife and the tiramisu.

 

[McMan]

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose. You’ll lose fifty bucks or whatever the price downgrade is from cooking a dinner or two with it, but it’s looking like this is the price of peace of mind here.

Otherwise, this happens:

You sell the Denka and buy the Mab only to realize that you prefer that Denka after all… It becomes the one that got away. At first, the $2 beer special on Thursdays gets you through things. You’re over the Denka; time to move forward. But it’s hard to forget about that KU… So, finally, it’s back to the well… only to realize that maybe the Mab wasn’t so bad after all… Why did you leave? After all, stainless is stable and predictable and safe and returns your texts. But the “yeah, buts…” kick in yet again… The circle repeats itself, this time spiraling into a raging whirlpool of a hunt for the ideal TF. So, this calls for further research… You’ve convinced yourself that White steel is superior, maybe even seen a Murray Carter video saying so, but then Murray also said he likes blue now, so what to do?--He’s contradicted himself?! Soon, you're immune to $2 beers on Thursdays, you’ve bought six Denka and seven Mabs, only to realize that not one is like another. You’ve probably even started a thread about TF overgrinds by this point, only to receive conflicting opinions there too. You’ve received a lesson in the legendary variability of TFs, lost multiple hundreds for the privilege of that enlightenment, and become a regular on BST...

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose.

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose. You’ll lose fifty bucks or whatever the price downgrade is from cooking a dinner or two with it, but it’s looking like this is the price of peace of mind here.

Otherwise, this happens:

You sell the Denka and buy the Mab only to realize that you prefer that Denka after all… It becomes the one that got away. At first, the $2 beer special on Thursdays gets you through things. You’re over the Denka; time to move forward. But it’s hard to forget about that KU… So, finally, it’s back to the well… only to realize that maybe the Mab wasn’t so bad after all… Why did you leave? After all, stainless is stable and predictable and safe and returns your texts. But the “yeah, buts…” kick in yet again… The circle repeats itself, this time spiraling into a raging whirlpool of a hunt for the ideal TF. So, this calls for further research… You’ve convinced yourself that White steel is superior, maybe even seen a Murray Carter video saying so, but then Murray also said he likes blue now, so what to do?--He’s contradicted himself?! Soon, you're immune to $2 beers on Thursdays, you’ve bought six Denka and seven Mabs, only to realize that not one is like another. You’ve probably even started a thread about TF overgrinds by this point, only to receive conflicting opinions there too. You’ve received a lesson in the legendary variability of TFs, lost multiple hundreds for the privilege of that enlightenment, and become a regular on BST...

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose.

See, if a denka is the best it's going to get, I should wait and save enough to order my ideal specs in the denka line. Except that never happens because TF keeps increasing the price and my money goes towards emotional support tiramisu.

 

[juice]

Just buy your dream Mab, test it next to your Denka, and choose.

+1. Save for the Mab, compare, sell the loser/non-winner or keep both.

 

[Carl Kotte]

Or buy a bunch of cheaper but nice knives and live in happiness ever after.

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Or buy a bunch of cheaper but nice knives and live in happiness ever after.

I just want one good knife.

I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with only one good knife

 

[Carl Kotte]

I just want one good knife.

I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with just one single good knife

Same here. But finding one single good one has brought more knives to my home than I want to admit. Luckily, selling is a good option. I’ve ended up with at least 4 or 5 magnificent knives (for my taste and preference) none of which are tf, and none of which cost as much as a denka.

 

[juice]

magnificent knives (for my taste and preference) none of which are tf

Then how can that be?

 

[Carl Kotte]

Then how can that be?

Well, I guess it’s common knowledge by now that I have very questionable taste. TFs don’t come in beige

 

[Carl Kotte]

Also, I’m not very fond of tiramisu for the same reason. Too colorful

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Also, I’m not very fond of tiramisu for the same reason. Too colorful

This beige thing is going over my head. In any case, the lack of beige tiramisu must be because you're not adding enough cognac to your mascarpone.

 

[Carl Kotte]

This beige thing is going over my head. In any case, the lack of beige tiramisu must be because you're not adding enough cognac to your mascarpone.

Yeah sorry, What I called ’common knowledge’ isn’t common. @juice likes calling me beige Lion because of my appetite for beige food... and knives.
And Thanks for the tip! I will change the color of that mascarpone until it is deliciously beige!

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Yeah sorry, What I called ’common knowledge’ isn’t common. @juice likes calling me beige Lion because of my appetite for beige food... and knives.
And Thanks for the tip! I will change the color of that mascarpone until it is deliciously beige!

It was sort of a joke because you'd need to add a lot of cognac for a true beige color and the mixture can start to separate sometimes. I said cognac because it seemed extravagant. I use dark rum most of the time. Boozy tiramisu is really great.

 

[Carl Kotte]

It was sort of a joke because you'd need to add a lot of cognac for a true beige color and the mixture can start to separate sometimes. I use dark rum most of the time. Boozy tiramisu is really great.

Yeah, I realized it was a joke - and I liked it!
Another way to beige a mascarpone is to whip it with a carbon steel knife (it may take some time). And then you don’t want stainless clad!

 

[sliceanddicebaby]

Yeah, I thought it was a joke - and I like it!

I'm serious about the rum though! Spiced dark rum works wonders.

I usually make tiramisu to take to parties and add a whole lot. Given the general theme of the parties, using good cognac would be like "casting pearls before swine" as Tiramisu Fujiwara IV says.

 

[EShin]

See, if a denka is the best it's going to get, I should wait and save enough to order my ideal specs in the denka line. Except that never happens because TF keeps increasing the price and my money goes towards emotional support tiramisu.

So the Denka you own is close to the one knife you'd like to have, but you'd prefer a thicker one with more height, and you thought you might be able to get that with a Maboroshi, whereas getting a Denka with said specs would be out of your budget, right? And now you wanna know what you'd give up... As an owner of both a Denka and a Maboroshi, not a lot to add about the steels, I agree with lemeneid. Obviously, they feel a bit different, but still they're clearly from the same maker. So if I was in your situation, having a knife that fits my needs and preferences would be the more important factor than Denka vs. Maboroshi. However, I guess finding your dream Maboroshi with the 刀工 tōkō mark, a red handle that fits your other preferences, too, might be difficult, so you might wanna check first if you can get one...

 

[lemeneid]

I just want one good knife.

I've had experience with watches, yes I really mean I'll be good with only one good knife

You CANNOT have only ONE watch unlike knives.

I bought my first Batman 8 years ago, now I’m gobbling up Nautilus and VCs

I need help.

 

[ian]

I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to reiterate that the reason Denka AS gets sharper than Mab Wh1 is because it costs more. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.

Certainly both will work fine for tiramisu, although it may be easier to clean the cream off of a non TF knife that doesn’t have hammer marks or kurouchi. Usually I end up cutting my tiramisu on ceramic, though, so you may have to experiment to see how the Denka’s edge retention balances with its chippiness when cutting on such a surface. I think that’s why @McMan is telling you to try both. For such a specialized use, it’s hard to tell which will work best when all you have are reviews concerning more general performance.

 

[EShin]

I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to reiterate that the reason Denka AS gets sharper than Mab Wh1 is because it costs more. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.

So would a TF in e.g. AUS8 be sharper than the Denka in AS if it would cost more?

TF's heat treatment of AS being exceptional is the more common explanation, and I find that much more intelligible, and it fits my experience with both knives...

 

[Carl Kotte]

So would a TF in e.g. AUS8 be sharper than the Denka in AS if it would cost more?

I think the answer is yes! It’s something we all just have to accept.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Also toucou means squat nowadays, TF doesn’t forge knives anymore nor is it an indication of quality.

Like sticking a Turbo badge on an AMC Pacer?

[/QUOTE]
And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.
[/QUOTE]
Don't tell Ricky

 

[Corradobrit1]

TFs don’t come in beige

I beg to differ

 

[lemeneid]

Like sticking a Turbo badge on an AMC Pacer?

And the hand chiseled kanji is tacky AF.
[/QUOTE]
Don't tell Ricky
[/QUOTE]
I've seen TONS of Mercs and Beemers here with AMG and M badges on them like they would give an extra 100hp boost in power.

And Ricky knows, I've told him that tons of times

 

[nakiriknaifuwaifu]

You CANNOT have only ONE watch unlike knives.

I bought my first Batman 8 years ago, now I’m gobbling up Nautilus and VCs

I need help.

What are you doing on that island of yours? Who do I need to kill to be able to afford VCs and Nauts on a monthly basis?

Please help I want to commission a TF in aus 8

 

[Carl Kotte]

I want to commision TF a private display of him casting pearls before swines. I’m ready to provide the pigs.