Trying to decide on knife style before I fill out the questionnaire

[Cifer]

Hello everyone, and thanks for the help in other threads so far (which I will catch up on later today).

I'm wondering what the best knife type is for vegetarian cooking. I know gyutos are generally recommended on every knife forum for their versatility.

However, what if that versatility doesn't need to cover meat? I've heard people recommended nakiri or bunka over gyuto, while many people recommend a Chinese cleaver over a nakiri or bunka.

I cook both Western and Asian food including both soft vegetables like broccoli and cabbage as well as things like tomatoes, onion and harder vegetables like lettuce. And since I cook both Western and Asian, I also need a mix of fine chopping and larger chunks.

I am aware that ultimately a 240 mm gyuto + 180 mm bunka/nakiri/Chinese cleaver will be the best choice, but what I still don't quite understand is the practical difference between

Bunka
Nakiri
Santoku
Chinese cleaver

I do understand that often there is no clear line between knife shapes, but there has to be a general difference between the above.

What do people here think? What would be the best overall knife for vegetarian cooking?

What advantage would a gyuto's shape give me in practice? I know that the others mostly don't have a tip, but I can't think of any type of cutting that can't be done with a square edge. Any examples?

Thanks a lot!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Bunkas and santokus are essentially the same thing with different tips. My issue with bunkas is exactly that, the tip, or end actually. If you do any kind of work with your offhand on the spine (double rocking, slicing cheese, etc) it easily slips off. It's also easily damaged. I like santoku but see them more as a quick task or utility type knife. Because they are typically a compromise of different styles they don't really excel at any one thing.

Nakiri are specifically designed for vegetables but these days there's so much variation in the grinds and profiles that the statement is almost cliche. I like a good nakiri and use them for everything including meat. I like the slightly added height and that it continues down the whole blade. It makes riding your knuckle so nice and you have a built-in food scoop. I like a nakiri that allows me to push cut but also rock chop. 180mm is a nice versatile size but I do a lot of work with shorter ones too.

Cleavers should not be associated wit nakiri beyond their general shape. They are very different knives. I have yet to gel with cleavers. I totally understand why people love them though. The weight and design allow the blade to do a lot of the cutting without much force and they are great scoops.

I know it is said all the time but it really is a personal choice, and that includes gyutos and even further, the size and style of whatever knife you choose.

 

[tostadas]

Nakiri - big area to function as a mini scooper, relatively flat profile, rounded tip.

Santoku - similar to nakiri but with a tip. The profile may sometimes sweep up more toward the front compared to nakiri. Tend to have high heel heights relative to blade length, compared to gyutos

Bunka - basically santoku with the area on top of the tip cut off. The tip is easier to break due to the minimal steel on that area. Good for those that want a santoku but don't want to be seen using one.

Chinese cleaver - my personal favorite but very different animal. Biggest difference is in the weight. It's a different cutting style compared to all the other blades because instead of pushing down to cut, it's more of lifting the cleaver and positioning it to allow the knife weight to make the cut. Huge surface area which makes transferring ingredients very convenient.

 

[aporigine]

I know it varies between makers, but aren’t bunka typically furnished with a flatter profile than santoku?

If large veg (heads of cabbage, big onions) are a common task, a 240 gyuto seems the knife for it. Especially one with a thin “laser” grind. For onions, my Shibata Kashima outperforms my other knives.

Think of a 240 gyuto with a nice long flat spot as a 165 +- nakiri with 75mm bonus edge. And a thin-tipped knife is a blast on various allium.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I know it varies between makers, but aren’t bunka typically furnished with a flatter profile than santoku?

Completely dependent on the individual offering, so sometimes yes for sure, but not consistently. Bunka and santoku are considered to be the same style of knife. Santoku typically have a flatter profile than gyuto. But, they also have so tip curve so they may appear more curved overall than bunkas.

 

[Cifer]

Thanks everyone!

I should probably start with a gyuto and a petty upgrade and then consider other types later.

I'm still not sure if I want a laser or not, and I'm also not entirely certain if a 240 mm gyuto is all that necessary if I only cook for one person, rarely for two. I do understand that it's better for larger ingredients, but it would appear to me that the advantage of cutting one or two large things in one motion it outweighed by the advantage of being able to cut the many small things more nimbly.

I don't rock chop, so the ergonomic advantage (less movement required for rock chopping at the same height with longer blades) is not that important.

What would be somewhat common vegetables or fruit in Western and Asian cuisine that a laser shouldn't be used on? I presume watermelons and squashes are prime examples, but what else is there?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm not sure I'd be too quick to abandon a nakiri just yet, especially for the way you cut. What do you use now?

My prep is predominantly done with a 180mm or less knife and I very rarely feel the need for anything longer.

Don't get the term "laser" confused with delicate. Laser just means the overall knife is thin but a workhorse type knife with a thicker spine can have a very thin, even delicate edge.

 

[Cifer]

I'm not sure I'd be too quick to abandon a nakiri just yet, especially for the way you cut. What do you use now?

My prep is predominantly done with a 180mm or less knife and I very rarely feel the need for anything longer.

Don't get the term "laser" confused with delicate. Laser just means the overall knife is thin but a workhorse type knife with a thicker spine can have a very thin, even delicate edge.

Doesn't that essentially mean the same thing? If a workhorse knife has a very thin and delicate edge, then wouldn't it have issues with the same hard ingredients as an actual laser, essentially making it not a workhorse?

Regarding the nakiri, I'm absolutely not giving up on it. I just believe that it probably makes more sense to purchase a gyuto first and then a nakiri later. I'm totally fine with buying both.

My main questions are still:

a) 240 mm chef knife (gyuto probably) + 150 mm petty, or

210 mm chef knife (+ maybe a small paring knife)?

b) Japanese laser for most work + Western knife (Victorinox Swiss Modern?) for harder things to cut, or

only a Japanese knife that's less of a laser but can deal with stuff I'd otherwise use the Western knife for?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Doesn't that essentially mean the same thing? If a workhorse knife has a very thin and delicate edge, then wouldn't it have issues with the same hard ingredients as an actual laser, essentially making it not a workhorse?

Regarding the nakiri, I'm absolutely not giving up on it. I just believe that it probably makes more sense to purchase a gyuto first and then a nakiri later. I'm totally fine with buying both.

My main questions are still:

a) 240 mm chef knife (gyuto probably) + 150 mm petty, or

210 mm chef knife (+ maybe a small paring knife)?

b) Japanese laser for most work + Western knife (Victorinox Swiss Modern?) for harder things to cut, or

only a Japanese knife that's less of a laser but can deal with stuff I'd otherwise use the Western knife for?

Again, laser doesn't equal delicate. Laser refers to the overall grind which will be thin compared to say a workhorse but either can still have an edge that is robust enough to handle most things or very fragile.

Many here will tell you that 240's are the way to go but I'm not among them. I don't just settle for shorter knives, I prefer them so I think you'd be fine with a 210.

Either the Basic or Carbonext offerings here would be an excellent first step:
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/jck-original-kagayaki

If you go with one of those I would not opt for the ES option. That will leave the edge a little more robust but you'll get an overall laser package. I have a santoku from the Basic series and I'm not hesitant to use it for most all tasks.

A paring knife is always a safe bet but I'd go with something cheap like a Victorinox or similar class. No need to get spendy here.

Having a Vic or something similar for rough tasks may not be bad a idea but I don't know how necessary it will be. Depends on much really hard stuff you cut. I don't concern myself with watermelon.

 

[stringer]

I'll expand a little on what @HumbleHomeCook is saying in regard to lasers.

Lasers are actually better for hard stuff like squash and melon. Thicker spined knives wedge. The four things you most want to avoid are bones, which don't give up often in vegetarian cuisine. And torque. Lasers hate torque. But this is more about lateral forces. There are very few vegetables too hard to cut as long as you keep your cutting motion up and down. 3. NEVER cut fully frozen foods. 4. Never use marble or glass cutting surfaces. 5. Do not twist the blade while moving it in through food or on a surface in a different plane of motion.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'll expand a little on what @HumbleHomeCook is saying in regard to lasers.

Lasers are actually better for hard stuff like squash and melon. Thicker spined knives wedge. The four things you most want to avoid are bones, which don't give up often in vegetarian cuisine. And torque. Lasers hate torque. But this is more about lateral forces. There are very few vegetables too hard to cut as long as you keep your cutting motion up and down. 3. NEVER cut fully frozen foods. 4. Never use marble or glass cutting surfaces. 5. Do not twist the blade while moving it in through food or on a surface in a different plane of motion.

All very good points and I meant to say that about melons and such. I agree that lasers go through them better.

 

[Cifer]

Again, laser doesn't equal delicate. Laser refers to the overall grind which will be thin compared to say a workhorse but either can still have an edge that is robust enough to handle most things or very fragile.

Many here will tell you that 240's are the way to go but I'm not among them. I don't just settle for shorter knives, I prefer them so I think you'd be fine with a 210.

Either the Basic or Carbonext offerings here would be an excellent first step:
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/jck-original-kagayaki

If you go with one of those I would not opt for the ES option. That will leave the edge a little more robust but you'll get an overall laser package. I have a santoku from the Basic series and I'm not hesitant to use it for most all tasks.

A paring knife is always a safe bet but I'd go with something cheap like a Victorinox or similar class. No need to get spendy here.

Having a Vic or something similar for rough tasks may not be bad a idea but I don't know how necessary it will be. Depends on much really hard stuff you cut. I don't concern myself with watermelon.

Thanks!

I was under the impression that all of the commonly recommended lasers had relatively fragile edges. But the word laser isn't exactly accurate or clearly defined, so the type of knife you are referring to might not qualify as a laser to some people.

I was told my sellers and knife makers that a laser requires a very thin edge and area behind the edge and are by nature fragile. Not sure what to make of it.

I've seen the CarboNext recommended several times (among many others), but I'm not sure if it's a good value since I'm in Germany. You have to take the price of the knife + shipping and multiply it by 1.19 to see what I would pay.

I know many other "special editions" only offered by specific US or JP shops are available under different names in Europe, but I'm not sure about the CarboNext.

I'll fill out the form shortly. Not sure if I should make a new thread for that. I cannot edit the title.

 

[mengwong]

I’ll go against consensus so far and put in a vote for something like these

https://knifejapan.com/nakamura-hamono-kaku-bocho-180mm/

https://knifejapan.com/yashima-nogu-kogyo-nakiri-bocho-180mm-aogami-2/

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Just start a new thread. No harm in that.

I don't know what vendors are a good fit for you.

 

[nopomo]

Robert Herder/Windmühlenmesser paring knives are good and cheap—you should get one as a benchmark for “thin behind the edge”.

 

[Cifer]

I’ll go against consensus so far and put in a vote for something like these

https://knifejapan.com/nakamura-hamono-kaku-bocho-180mm/

https://knifejapan.com/yashima-nogu-kogyo-nakiri-bocho-180mm-aogami-2/

Thanks!

Free shipping world wide sounds nice, could actually make it better than buying locally. There are likely many Japanese stores where it would be worth it. On the other hand, European consumer protection laws are so good, and that returns will be free or at least cheap. So I often prefer paying a bit more for the safety and security.

I will make a thread with the form later. I'm sure some European users can help with where it's best to buy, and I can always ask in a Germany/Europe-focused forum later as well.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Lots of info already but for me, nakiri and Chinese chef knives are most different because of blade height. More room for knuckles on very tall stuff like cabbages. This effect carries through the cut, too, where the extra surface tends to minimize twisting and can help with precision cuts. Just my opinion, take it fwiw.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks!

Free shipping world wide sounds nice, could actually make it better than buying locally. There are likely many Japanese stores where it would be worth it. On the other hand, European consumer protection laws are so good, and that returns will be free or at least cheap. So I often prefer paying a bit more for the safety and security.

I will make a thread with the form later. I'm sure some European users can help with where it's best to buy, and I can always ask in a Germany/Europe-focused forum later as well.

Many of us are big fans of Knife Japan.

 

[Cifer]

Robert Herder/Windmühlenmesser paring knives are good and cheap—you should get one as a benchmark for “thin behind the edge”.

The Santoku is actually a common recommendation. I don't know how good it is compared with similar Japanese alternatives, or something that costs 30 euros more.

I'm also sceptical that its handle - or any of the Herder handles - is nice for a pinch grip.

 

[Delat]

Thanks everyone!

I should probably start with a gyuto and a petty upgrade and then consider other types later.

I'm still not sure if I want a laser or not, and I'm also not entirely certain if a 240 mm gyuto is all that necessary if I only cook for one person, rarely for two. I do understand that it's better for larger ingredients, but it would appear to me that the advantage of cutting one or two large things in one motion it outweighed by the advantage of being able to cut the many small things more nimbly.

I don't rock chop, so the ergonomic advantage (less movement required for rock chopping at the same height with longer blades) is not that important.

What would be somewhat common vegetables or fruit in Western and Asian cuisine that a laser shouldn't be used on? I presume watermelons and squashes are prime examples, but what else is there?

I only cook for two people and use a 180-200mm gyuto for most tasks. Very rarely I’ll grab something larger than 225.

Nakiris are fun - I have a couple. For a first “nice” knife I’d recommend starting with a gyuto though.

One thing to consider is the height of your cutting surface (counter + board). Stand straight and tall at your cutting board and let your hand drop edge-on to the board. If your forearm is only slightly angled down, then you’ll benefit from a shorter knife with a flatter profile and low heel. If your forearm is tilted quite a bit, then you’ll benefit from a longer knife with a bit more rounded tip and more belly, and higher heel.

Try it out with your existing knife to see where along the blade contacts the board when you keep your shoulders relaxed and your wrist straight, and that’ll help put it into context.

 

[Cifer]

I only cook for two people and use a 180-200mm gyuto for most tasks. Very rarely I’ll grab something larger than 225.

Nakiris are fun - I have a couple. For a first “nice” knife I’d recommend starting with a gyuto though.

One thing to consider is the height of your cutting surface (counter + board). Stand straight and tall at your cutting board and let your hand drop edge-on to the board. If your forearm is only slightly angled down, then you’ll benefit from a shorter knife with a flatter profile and low heel. If your forearm is tilted quite a bit, then you’ll benefit from a longer knife with a bit more rounded tip and more belly, and higher heel.

Try it out with your existing knife to see where along the blade contacts the board when you keep your shoulders relaxed and your wrist straight, and that’ll help put it into context.

Thanks!

I think starting with a 210 gyuto is indeed the safest bet. I can always buy a specialized knife like a nakiri or chinese cleaver later, as well as a larger gyuto.

225 cm would probably be the perfect length for me, but it's hard to find a decent gyuto that size - at least under 200 euros.

I have many different surfaces at different heights in my kitchen, so that isn't a determining factor for knife size. I always make sure that my forearms are parallel to the floor though.

 

[kot_blini]

This is exactly the type of food I cook. I do not have the same breadth of experience with knives as many members here, so keep that in mind. What I have found so far is that ergonomics, preferred techniques, and anything else that falls under the umbrella of "personal preference" trumps broad recommendations that can be made based on the style of food you cook. For example I tried using a Chinese vegetable cleaver for a while because I cook a ton of Chinese food, but eventually I had to accept that I was simply too short relative to my cutting surface to use it comfortably. Few would recommend a 18cm petty for veg prep, but I find it light and nimble and I can fairly comfortably do like 80% of what I need with it. I like it a lot for everyday meals. I still plan on getting a 240mm gyuto though. I've just been putting it off bc my current set up works well enough.

If you are starting from scratch, think about the biggest stuff you'll need to cut. Small knives suck for cutting big cabbage, melons, even stuff like rutabaga. You can do it but you'll have to use weird workarounds. I can fall back on a household 250mm knife for such things, otherwise I would have gotten my own full size chef knife a long time ago. You can use something cheap for this if you don't intend for it to be your primary knife. Other than that, people have successfully used all of the styles you've mentioned as main knives for this type of cuisine. Just depends on how you like to cut. Pick something not too expensive that appeals to you and give it a shot. If a 240mm gyuto is your main knife you won't need another cheap big knife for big produce.

 

[kot_blini]

One more thing. The main reasons I want to upgrade from my relatively inexpensive knives are:
1) thinner grind, I want something that goes through dense foods more easily. And
2) corrosion resistance!! I wasn't thinking about this at all when I bought my current knives which are all SK (carbon) steel. I don't care about patina and I never leave knives dirty so I didn't think stainless had much to offer. But some recent experience with AUS 8 has shown me just how badly SK steel edges hold up to acids relative to basic Japanese stainless. All along I assumed I was having deburring problems but edge corrosion was the real culprit. Not that you can't get by with carbon but it dulls quickly enough with the foods I cut that I get annoyed. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Jovidah]

I would still get a gyuto even if I didn't cook meat... but that's my personal preference. It depends on your cutting style / technique what works best for you.
These days the categories get more and more murkey (with K-tip versions of just about any profile, more and more square knives covering the bridge between nakiri and chinese cleaver).

Main things you get from gyutos are more length, and a bit of curve / belly. Whether that's a benefit to you depends really entirely on how you cut.
For me how useful a certain length is depends more on the ingredient that I'm cutting than the amount of people I'm cooking for. But that's just me.

Petties are even more dependent on your personal fancy; some don't use them at all, others use them for everything. Very hard to predict.

The core of the problem here is that it's very hard to tell someone else what their preferences are or should be. There's no real substitute for trying things yourself and making up your mind. Once you know what your actualy preferences are we're quite good at finding knives that suit them...

I do however second a general recommendation for Robert Herder paring knives, especially since you can just buy the cheap models in Germany. Very low bar to entry for very great performance. I don't know what price their larger entry knives are these days (nakiri / santoku) but they used to the best performer you could get at the price. Very good to get a benchmark of how a knife can / should cut.

 

[Fellax]

One thing about chinese cleavers is that the can be dirty cheap if you want to try one, i bought one from Ali express for less than 8€ carbon 21 cm... No edge and no frills, if you have sharpening skills why not to try one?

 

[Cifer]

I would still get a gyuto even if I didn't cook meat... but that's my personal preference. It depends on your cutting style / technique what works best for you.
These days the categories get more and more murkey (with K-tip versions of just about any profile, more and more square knives covering the bridge between nakiri and chinese cleaver).

Main things you get from gyutos are more length, and a bit of curve / belly. Whether that's a benefit to you depends really entirely on how you cut.
For me how useful a certain length is depends more on the ingredient that I'm cutting than the amount of people I'm cooking for. But that's just me.

Petties are even more dependent on your personal fancy; some don't use them at all, others use them for everything. Very hard to predict.

The core of the problem here is that it's very hard to tell someone else what their preferences are or should be. There's no real substitute for trying things yourself and making up your mind. Once you know what your actualy preferences are we're quite good at finding knives that suit them...

I do however second a general recommendation for Robert Herder paring knives, especially since you can just buy the cheap models in Germany. Very low bar to entry for very great performance. I don't know what price their larger entry knives are these days (nakiri / santoku) but they used to the best performer you could get at the price. Very good to get a benchmark of how a knife can / should cut.

Thanks!

The problem with the Herder knives is that the handle looks just awful for a pinch grip.

I'm not sure if they are still good value. The K5 costs 160 to 170 euros, and the smallest Santoku costs about 80.

One thing about chinese cleavers is that the can be dirty cheap if you want to try one, i bought one from Ali express for less than 8€ carbon 21 cm... No edge and no frills, if you have sharpening skills why not to try one?

That is true, but I would prefer to spend more on at least something like a CCK. The shape alone isn't what matters, and something super thin like a CCK will surely feel much different from a thick 8€ AliExpress cleaver.

The issue is that CCK is totally overpriced now, especially in Europe. I would love to know of a decent source.

 

[Jovidah]

Herder handles are fine for pinch grip. Only issue is that the spine isn't eased, but you'll find that problem on all knives in your price range. The only real drawback I can think of in regards to your preferences is that they are really not excelling in food release.

 

[Cifer]

Herder handles are fine for pinch grip. Only issue is that the spine isn't eased, but you'll find that problem on all knives in your price range. The only real drawback I can think of in regards to your preferences is that they are really not excelling in food release.

The main issue for me is that the Herder Santoku might be a good value, but for the K5 at 160 euros there is so much competition.