Venev stones

[captaincaed]

One thing I've learned is diamond =\= faster. The binding agent matters a lot. I have three types: vulcanized rubber, residoid, super vitrified. They increase in speed in that order, somewhat independent of grit size.

Diamond = possible to cut hard carbide (vanadium, tungsten, niobium).

Silicon carbide is harder than iron and chromium carbide, and can cut them. I think AlOx is also harder. But the stone binder makes a big difference.

Think about it. We all get into fun debates about which synths we like and why. There are TWO compounds used as abrasive in standard sharpening stones (SiC and AlOx). The rest of the difference is the binder. Same with diamond stones.

Also you can cut new bevels with any old coarse water stone, then finish on finer diamonds. Coarse stone creates a new geometry, diamonds cut carbides after. No problemo.

 

[captaincaed]

One elephant in the room. Norton stones. Some of the fastest material hoggers I know. They are SiC (just like a waterstone) but with a vitrified bond, rather than a porous binder designed to slough off new abrasive. They're much harder to flatten, but cut quicker when the surface is fresh. Since the abrasive "stays put" instead of creating a slurry, I think they tend to leave toothier edges, especially at low grit. Especially on cheap stainless. They're like cheese graters for steel.

Once you choose an abrasive, it's all about the bond to determine the character of the stone.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Abrasives are a scientific discipline/specialization in and of themselves and pretty complex and not something I'm versed in at all!

One of the things that contributes to performance is the crystal structure. Diamonds still need a sharp edge to cut no matter how hard they actually are. I mean, the side of band saw blade is harder than wood but it ain't gonna cut it. So if the diamond abrasive just smooths out quickly then it will suck.

We're in @Deadboxhero's world here.

 

[captaincaed]

Very true, point well made.

Coticule have hard garnets, harder than steel. They leave a polished rather than toothy edge. In general of course.

I've heard of diamond grading but know precious little about it.

I do know that cubitron sandpaper designs the abrasive particles (ceramic?) to fracture into a new toothy particle, and the effect on paper life and speed of wood removal is substantially better than basic papers.

But as you'll see here, top two contenders have the SAME abrasive (same company even), but the "format" difference changes the game.

 

[Barmoley]

Do you think the 1k is fast enough to cut new bevels quickly? I use a Shapton 120. And if the edge is around 10-15 thousandths, it takes about five minutes to create the burr on both sides at around 15 degrees per side.

I wanted to buy the 400 and 3k, but think the 5k is better overall for my needs. So 1k and 5k would be ideal. But not if it takes long to cut new bevels, as that is what I seem to use my stones for mostly.

That I don't know. 1K is fast, but I don't think you can compare it it to 120. 400 is supposed to be very fast so that might work. I've been moving away from higher grit stones as I seem to get best results finishing in the 3-4k range for my use. 5K BBB diamond is also interesting since most 6K diamonds I've tried leave a slightly bittier edge than 6k synthetics. So not sure myself if I want 3k or 5k, I will probably go with 3K and strop if I want more refinement, but I suspect 3K will be enough for me.

Basically what @captaincaed said. Diamonds are not necessarily fast, BBB stones are though. One of the reasons they don't seem to load much at least at the lower grits. For major work I would still probably go with low grit synthetic even though 400 BBB is supposed to be very fast.

 

[M1k3]

One thing I've learned is diamond =\= faster. The binding agent matters a lot. I have three types: vulcanized rubber, residoid, super vitrified. They increase in speed in that order, somewhat independent of grit size.

Diamond = possible to cut hard carbide (vanadium, tungsten, niobium).

Silicon carbide is harder than iron and chromium carbide, and can cut them. I think AlOx is also harder. But the stone binder makes a big difference.

Think about it. We all get into fun debates about which synths we like and why. There are TWO compounds used as abrasive in standard sharpening stones (SiC and AlOx). The rest of the difference is the binder. Same with diamond stones.

Also you can cut new bevels with any old coarse water stone, then finish on finer diamonds. Coarse stone creates a new geometry, diamonds cut carbides after. No problemo.

Diamond > SiC > AlOx hardness wise. Giggity.

AlOx > SiC > Diamond for cutting speed.

Generally speaking and ignoring binder type.

 

[Leo Barr]

The OCB resin is softer than the Naniwa Diamond resin, may have better feel but more prone to wear and gouging if the angle isn't dead on.

Finish is better on the Naniwa resin diamond
cleaner, brighter and more consistent but it also costs more.


All resin diamond/CBN stones load up. They need to be cleaned to cut effectively if loaded significantly (which comes from use)

They also need to be dressed to expose more diamond in the resin. So it's not about just cleaning them, they need the bonding cut up with AlOx or SiC to work best. (Not too coarse or too fine, 200-400 grit range)

Considering Naniwa diamond resin stones for initial sharpening on single bevel knives & chisels - you mention cleaning them please enlighten me how is this done?

 

[esoo]

Considering Naniwa diamond resin stones for initial sharpening on single bevel knives & chisels - you mention cleaning them please enlighten me how is this done?

The Naniwa stones come with a nagura for cleaning them.

 

[Leo Barr]

The Naniwa stones come with a nagura for cleaning them.

I have one of the old Naniwa nagura reddy brown stones do the diamond stones come with a different nagura?

 

[esoo]

I have one of the old Naniwa nagura reddy brown stones do the diamond stones come with a different nagura?

My 3K came with a green nagura stone. Not sure what the others come with.

 

[Blank Blades.]

It's been a while...

Yeah I love my venev stones. I have the 240/400 1200/2000 ocb stones.

The only complaint I have is with the finish the 2000 provides. You are. Better off getting the 800/1200 if you want a good mirror finish on a bevel. What I can say about the 2000 ocb stone is the edge it leaves is great.

These stones are indispensable for sharpening high carbide, high hardness steels. I have k390, and maxamet, and these stones get both razor sharp no problem. Taking about the same amount of time that a normal steel would take on japanese water stones.

I feel they work especially well when supplemented with diamond plates for coarse work, and diamond or cbn compound on a strop for the finishing touches on high vanadium carbide steels.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Also I wanted to add the tungsten in an air hardened steel shouldn't be an issue with sharpening. The only time it will turn into wc rather than w6c is in a water or fast oil hardening steel. At least from my understanding.

The w6c carbides should be around the hardness of chromium carbide if memory serves me.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

I have the Dragon series version of these in 100/240, 400/800, and 1200/2000, but I'll chime in here as well.

As mentioned, these are not cheap stones (and the Dragon's are even more expensive), but they really are a one and done for me as they tackle everything from cheap stainless to Maxamet, and do so quickly and easily.

I'm not sure where I read to do this, but I have been using Ammonia Free Windex instead of water on these as they seem to stay wet longer, if that makes sense. I've tried water as well, but prefer the glass cleaner.

As far as actual use goes, I have only used the 240 side for some reprofiling and minor repair, but I'm sure the 100 would be nice for a bigger chip or a broken tip.

The 400/800 I've played around with a bit for more of a utility edge, and that works great. It's also a nice progression to have for bringing out a mirrored edge on some folders.

I really like the 1200/2K stone for "normal" sharpening. By that I mean where the edge is dull, but not beat to heck and/or in need of anything more coarse to reprofile/thin/fix. I keep my knives in pretty good shape, so this is also a touch-up stone for me. I do my main work on the 1200 and then just basically do a few super light passes and then some stropping strokes on the 2K. I don't feel the need to strop afterwards as the edge is really nice, and it only takes a few passes. Normal weekly touch ups are done via stropping on the 2K as well.

I should mention that I have not tried lapping the 2K with sic powder as Gritomatic recommends on their site since I wanted to see what it was like right out of the box. The edges I've gotten are impressive, but I may try a bit of lapping just to see if I notice any difference.

Finally, I'm glad I got the 1200/2K stone as it looks like the 2K is not offered anymore, or at least it's not on Gritomatic's site right now. That's too bad, as it's a great finisher and touch-up stone!

Overall I am very happy with these and feel like they are worth the money. However If they decide to offer a 240/1200 combo version I would buy that in a heartbeat, as that would be all I would need for any of my kitchen knives and most of my folders!

 

[Blank Blades.]

I have the Dragon series version of these in 100/240, 400/800, and 1200/2000, but I'll chime in here as well.

As mentioned, these are not cheap stones (and the Dragon's are even more expensive), but they really are a one and done for me as they tackle everything from cheap stainless to Maxamet, and do so quickly and easily.

I'm not sure where I read to do this, but I have been using Ammonia Free Windex instead of water on these as they seem to stay wet longer, if that makes sense. I've tried water as well, but prefer the glass cleaner.

As far as actual use goes, I have only used the 240 side for some reprofiling and minor repair, but I'm sure the 100 would be nice for a bigger chip or a broken tip.

The 400/800 I've played around with a bit for more of a utility edge, and that works great. It's also a nice progression to have for bringing out a mirrored edge on some folders.

I really like the 1200/2K stone for "normal" sharpening. By that I mean where the edge is dull, but not beat to heck and/or in need of anything more coarse to reprofile/thin/fix. I keep my knives in pretty good shape, so this is also a touch-up stone for me. I do my main work on the 1200 and then just basically do a few super light passes and then some stropping strokes on the 2K. I don't feel the need to strop afterwards as the edge is really nice, and it only takes a few passes. Normal weekly touch ups are done via stropping on the 2K as well.

I should mention that I have not tried lapping the 2K with sic powder as Gritomatic recommends on their site since I wanted to see what it was like right out of the box. The edges I've gotten are impressive, but I may try a bit of lapping just to see if I notice any difference.

Finally, I'm glad I got the 1200/2K stone as it looks like the 2K is not offered anymore, or at least it's not on Gritomatic's site right now. That's too bad, as it's a great finisher and touch-up stone!

Overall I am very happy with these and feel like they are worth the money. However If they decide to offer a 240/1200 combo version I would buy that in a heartbeat, as that would be all I would need for any of my kitchen knives and most of my folders!

The reason they don't offer the 2k stone, is likely because of the problem mine (and a lot of others) has had.

Apparently the 1 micron diamond tend to form clumps, that tend to act like coarser grit than it actually is. Which leads to deeper scratches on the bevel than there should be for a 1 micron stone.

It does leave a great edge. the finnish is subpar though, which is what most people were complaining about.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

The reason they don't offer the 2k stone, is likely because of the problem mine (and a lot of others) has had.

Apparently the 1 micron diamond tend to for clumps, that tend to act like coarser grit than it actually is. Which leads to deeper scratches on the bevel than there should be for a 1 micron stone.

It does leave a great edge. the finnish is subpar though, which is what most people were complaining about.

Ah, gotcha.

Did you try lapping the 2K with some sic powder? If so, did that make any difference in either performance, or scratching?

 

[Blank Blades.]

Ah, gotcha.

Did you try lapping the 2K with some sic powder? If so, did that make any difference in either performance, or scratching?

Unfortunately, nothing I've been able to do has changed it. I emailed Constantine, I just do what he recommends. Which is finish on the 1200, and move to a strop if I want a mirror bevel for my (or whoever's) knife I'm working on. Or finish on the 2000 if I want a very fine edge, but don't care about the finish.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

Unfortunately, nothing I've been able to do has changed it. I emailed Constantine, I just do what he recommends. Which is finish on the 1200, and move to a strop if I want a mirror bevel for my (or whoever's) knife I'm working on. Or finish on the 2000 if I want a very fine edge, but don't care about the finish.

Thanks for the info!

I really like the edge (and don't care about the finish) off the 2K, so I'll continue to use it for a touch-up and finisher on the kitchen knives and folders that I just want max sharpness out of.

Last question - Did you notice ANY difference in performance after you lapped it with the sic powder? I'm not talking about the scratches, or how the edge looked. I'm talking about the actual sharpness you were getting off the stone before vs. after the lapping?

 

[M1k3]

I noticed a difference after lapping the surface. With the caveat it was loaded with swarf. I didn't use SiC powder though. I use my Shapton Glass 4k. I also lapped it when new, the water was puddling instead of spreading. Thought there might of been something on the surface.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

I noticed a difference after lapping the surface. With the caveat it was loaded with swarf. I didn't use SiC powder though. I use my Shapton Glass 4k. I also lapped it when new, the water was puddling instead of spreading. Thought there might of been something on the surface.

I don’t have too much of a swarf problem. I use a cheap Nagura for cleaning, which makes the stones look brand new again afterwards.

 

[M1k3]

I don’t have too much of a swarf problem. I use a cheap Nagura for cleaning, which makes the stones look brand new again afterwards.

I use the glass stone as a nagura.

 

[Rangen]

I agree, the Venevs will throw off little clusters from time to time. Not enough to be a problem when making kitchen knife edges, but I've ruled them out for razors. I can see where it could be a problem for polishing too.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Thanks for the info!

I really like the edge (and don't care about the finish) off the 2K, so I'll continue to use it for a touch-up and finisher on the kitchen knives and folders that I just want max sharpness out of.

Last question - Did you notice ANY difference in performance after you lapped it with the sic powder? I'm not talking about the scratches, or how the edge looked. I'm talking about the actual sharpness you were getting off the stone before vs. after the lapping?

I do notice they cut slightly faster after cleaning. If I've been using it for a while. I tend to use a nagura to flatten, and condition the surface every 15 or so knives. To not waste the stone.

 

[kayman67]

Don't over do it. But they are very resilient still (I also had the previous versions that were even harder). The Suehiro SiC nagura is ideal, but not widely available. I had mine because I used it for CBN also in the past.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Don't over do it. But they are very resilient still (I also had the previous versions that were even harder). The Suehiro SiC nagura is ideal, but not widely available. I had mine because I used it for CBN also in the past.

Yeah. Like I was saying. I only do it about every 15 or so knives, sometimes 20 or more. If reconditioned too often I feel like I'm wasting the stone. Plus the diamonds honestly don't need reconditioning that often. I could likely even go longer than I do.

I actually use one of suehiro's naguras. It's the one that comes with the cerax 320. I think its aluminum oxide though. Alo2 seems to work just as well on them in my experience though. Trying different naguras in the stones. I even tried jnat naguras.

 

[kayman67]

Yes, it works. I found the SiC ideal as it shows no signs of wear and tear after a long time, thus taking away the risk of "flattening" two surfaces at once.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Yes, it works. I found the SiC ideal as it shows no signs of wear and tear after a long time, thus taking away the risk of "flattening" two surfaces at once.

Ah, I see. Yeah. The aluminum oxide one does definitely wear. Slowly. But it does show wear.