Watanabe Kurouchi Nakkiri (Nakiri) knife 180mm any good for left handed?

[Martybli]

I’m considering the above knife but I’m unsure about it for left handed use. It states it’s a double bevel, not sure if this means it’s symmetrical so good for both left or right handed. Also being left handed do I also have to consider the handle? ie is a D handle for right handed only? Is the octagonal handle for either?

I’m only a home user so unsure if these things will make much difference for me but don’t want to order something which would prove a poor fit If something else out there would be better.

Thanks in advance.

 

[miggus]

Theoretically, a D-handle isn't completely symmetrical. I as a left-hander have never noticed a difference. It shouldn't matter.

Do you sharpen the knife yourself? With stones? If yes, than even if it's an uneven grind, you can fix that quickly.
Theoretically, you have an uneven edge, which is fixed easily, and you can have uneven knife geometry, which is a whole different story. But I don't think the latter is common on a Nakiri.

 

[Martybli]

Theoretically, a D-handle isn't completely symmetrical. I as a left-hander have never noticed a difference. It shouldn't matter.

Do you sharpen the knife yourself? With stones? If yes, than even if it's an uneven grind, you can fix that quickly.
Theoretically, you have an uneven edge, which is fixed easily, and you can have uneven knife geometry, which is a whole different story. But I don't think the latter is common on a Nakiri.

I have started sharpening my global knives with stones but don’t feel my level of skill is up to using on a really good quality knife. However I am keen to learn so want to be able to look after them myself.

 

[miggus]

I'd say, go for it. If you get the information beforehand how to do it and check your work (Sharpie-method...) then there should be little to be worried about. The nakiri you're looking at is especially easy to sharpen since the blade is straight.

Do you want to get it from a vendor? You can ask them if it's a symmetrical edge. If not, the vendor should put one on the knife for you for a small fee or none at all.

I bet you could simply order the knife and sharpen it yourself, and all will be fine

 

[nakiriknaifuwaifu]

Theoretically, a D-handle isn't completely symmetrical. I as a left-hander have never noticed a difference. It shouldn't matter.

Do you sharpen the knife yourself? With stones? If yes, than even if it's an uneven grind, you can fix that quickly.
Theoretically, you have an uneven edge, which is fixed easily, and you can have uneven knife geometry, which is a whole different story. But I don't think the latter is common on a Nakiri.

You can absolutely have a righty biased grind on a nakiri. Whether you would like to correct it with stones or just buy a different knife is up to you. Maybe Shinichi can set you up with a lefty biased one?

 

[miggus]

You can absolutely have a righty biased grind on a nakiri. Whether you would like to correct it with stones or just buy a different knife is up to you. Maybe Shinichi can set you up with a lefty biased one?

Problem of terminology Sorry if I used the wrong term. The biased grind is what I meant by "uneven edge". With uneven knife geometry, I meant things like one side is straight, the other is convex, which some manufacturer do on gyutos and other knives. That type of thing I wouldn't expect on a nakiri. And if it were present, it couldn't be fixed on the stones. Unless the uneven edge, which is no problem at all.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

My Wat Pro 180 nakiri does have a right hand biased geometry. It's not heavy but it's there and I don't know that a lefty would be happy with it.

 

[miggus]

Oh, wow. So much for that. @Martybli then you should definitely ask the vendor about this before buying this knife.

 

[Martybli]

My Wat Pro 180 nakiri does have a right hand biased geometry. It's not heavy but it's there and I don't know that a lefty would be happy with it.

This is where my problem lies. I’m not a pro cook, not even got good knife skills but appreciate using a sharp knife. Had globals for about 15 years and really like them. Being a lefty you just put up with right handed stuff such as scissors etc. Will my global G 2 knife be set up for right handed as well? Am I likely to get a wow factor by using a knife set up for left handed?

Now l’m stuck thinking do I:

A. ask the vendor if he can do a left handed one (probably cost a lot more) or
B put up with a right handed one or
C buy a different knife that is set up for left handed or
D buy a knife that is symmetrical

i really don’t know enough about knives to make that decision but part of me thinks it would always bug me thinking it could have been better if it was setup for left handed. Ie if he can make mea let handed one that’s the answer as I‘d always regret not doing that. I fear he wont so means a different knife I suppose. Sorry I’m kind I’d thinking out loud.

 

[miggus]

It's much less complicated than it may look. Like I tried to say, there are two ways in which a knife can be asymmetrical, only one of them is what you should avoid:



Source: A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry

So he calls it "asymmetrical grind" and "asymmetrical sharpening". As you can see, the grind won't be easily fixed so yeah, definitely avoid that. But changing the sharpening if the rest of the knife is symmetrical is easy, and either the vendor does it or you easily do it yourself.

If the Wat 180 you want is having an asymmetrical grind, simply pick another nakiri that is symmetrical. There are a lot of good ones, and I'd bet most are symmetrical to begin with. No problems!

 

[Benuser]

Come on. Don't expect a retailer to tell you a knife not being ambidextrous or not having a symmetric edge. In fact, except lasers, Japanese knives are right biased. Symmetric Japanese blades are extremely rare. Left-handers are traditionally being ignored, to put it mildly. Some retailers will offer a sharpening service to turn a right-biased blade into a neutral one. This will only work for a little time. The edge doesn't match with the blade's geometry, and after a few sharpenings the knife will start to wedge and steer. I'm well aware that some salesmen will tell you a very different story. The only solution is getting a knife with an inverted geometry as some makers (Misono, Masahiro) offer as an alternative and have in stock, or make as special order, which won't be cheap.

 

[miggus]

Interesting. In that case, maybe I'm less sensitive to that. But I'm very left-handed and have never had issues with this. I've had a TF Nashiji nakiri 165 and now I have a Moritaka 180 AS nakiri. Both work great, and I had no issues with steering or sharpening ever.

 

[Martybli]

It's much less complicated than it may look. Like I tried to say, there are two ways in which a knife can be asymmetrical, only one of them is what you should avoid:



Source: A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry

So he calls it "asymmetrical grind" and "asymmetrical sharpening". As you can see, the grind won't be easily fixed so yeah, definitely avoid that. But changing the sharpening if the rest of the knife is symmetrical is easy, and either the vendor does it or you easily do it yourself.

If the Wat 180 you want is having an asymmetrical grind, simply pick another nakiri that is symmetrical. There are a lot of good ones, and I'd bet most are symmetrical to begin with. No problems!

Thanks for the link and info. I must say I’m enjoying all the reading up and I’m not in a panic to buy so more reading is required. I initially thought people just sharpened symmetrically Which I now see can be a problem if the blade has an asymmetrical grind.

 

[miggus]

Have fun in the rabbit hole lol. I'm sorry if I stated incorrect information, people like Benuser are much more knowledgeable than me and know what they're talking about. Still, I'm not sure how much of a problem all this is. I've been buying J-Knives for 10ish years now and maybe I was lucky, but I rarely had knives that performed badly due to symmetry issues.
So in any case, you should be able to find yourself a nice unproblematic nakiri without expensive custom orders one way or the other. But surely the pros here can give tips on how to go about this. For me, it's been just try it out and sell if it doesn't feel right, which only happened 2 or 3 times. Enjoy your soon-to arrive nakiri

 

[Martybli]

Have fun in the rabbit hole lol. I'm sorry if I stated incorrect information, people like Benuser are much more knowledgeable than me and know what they're talking about. Still, I'm not sure how much of a problem all this is. I've been buying J-Knives for 10ish years now and maybe I was lucky, but I rarely had knives that performed badly due to symmetry issues.
So in any case, you should be able to find yourself a nice unproblematic nakiri without expensive custom orders one way or the other. But surely the pros here can give tips on how to go about this. For me, it's been just try it out and sell if it doesn't feel right, which only happened 2 or 3 times. Enjoy your soon-to arrive nakiri

Thanks a lot, I’m learning and enjoying the rabbit hole. To be honest if I understand the knife and know it’s built left handed for me it would give me more pleasure seeing it hung on the rack.

 

[Martybli]

Come on. Don't expect a retailer to tell you a knife not being ambidextrous or not having a symmetric edge. In fact, except lasers, Japanese knives are right biased. Symmetric Japanese blades are extremely rare. Left-handers are traditionally being ignored, to put it mildly. Some retailers will offer a sharpening service to turn a right-biased blade into a neutral one. This will only work for a little time. The edge doesn't match with the blade's geometry, and after a few sharpenings the knife will start to wedge and steer. I'm well aware that some salesmen will tell you a very different story. The only solution is getting a knife with an inverted geometry as some makers (Misono, Masahiro) offer as an alternative and have in stock, or make as special order, which won't be cheap.

I shall start a new hunt for a lefty and look at the two you’ve mentioned. Thanks a lot.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This is where my problem lies. I’m not a pro cook, not even got good knife skills but appreciate using a sharp knife. Had globals for about 15 years and really like them. Being a lefty you just put up with right handed stuff such as scissors etc. Will my global G 2 knife be set up for right handed as well? Am I likely to get a wow factor by using a knife set up for left handed?

Now l’m stuck thinking do I:

A. ask the vendor if he can do a left handed one (probably cost a lot more) or
B put up with a right handed one or
C buy a different knife that is set up for left handed or
D buy a knife that is symmetrical

i really don’t know enough about knives to make that decision but part of me thinks it would always bug me thinking it could have been better if it was setup for left handed. Ie if he can make mea let handed one that’s the answer as I‘d always regret not doing that. I fear he wont so means a different knife I suppose. Sorry I’m kind I’d thinking out loud.

I personally would shoot for symmetrical grinds right now. As I mentioned in the other thread, Akifusa, Tsunehisa, Harukaze, and Tosa Ichi should be good options. These are more factory produced knives but don't mistake that with having Global or Shun-like grinds, they don't. Akifusa in particular makes an excellent product and I've a couple Tsunehisa knives I've really enjoyed, to include one of their 165mm ginsan nakiri's.

Can you source any of these at a decent price over there?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Holy cow, I'd be very tempted to contact @DanielC and ask him if this has a bias.

Gorgeous knife at very attractive price!

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/167x59mm-sanmai-nakiri.60160/#post-929563

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Another option is to contact @MSicardCutlery about making you a lefty-bias knife. I know it's a custom and that might seem like a lot to take in at first but Matt has very reasonable prices and is great to work with. Not sure how the prices translate to the UK though.

 

[Benuser]

Interesting. In that case, maybe I'm less sensitive to that. But I'm very left-handed and have never had issues with this. I've had a TF Nashiji nakiri 165 and now I have a Moritaka 180 AS nakiri. Both work great, and I had no issues with steering or sharpening ever.

If the blade is kept very thin behind the edge some steering can be compensated by the user. Most people do without even being aware of it until they try a knife with a radically different geometry. What remains is the poor food release left-handers will experience with right-biased blades. The produce is likely to stick on the flat left face.

 

[esoo]

If the blade is kept very thin behind the edge some steering can be compensated by the user. Most people do without even being aware of it until they try a knife with a radically different geometry. What remains is the poor food release left-handers will experience with right-biased blades. The produce is likely to stick on the flat left face.

100% this. As I lefty, I feel I've gotten fairly good at reading choil shots to see when this will likely be the case. Flat ground on the left side and convex on the right is the common thing that I see.

 

[miggus]

I'll be damned - I inspected the Moritaka Nakiri and yes, it actually is flatter on the left side. Same for the Maboroshi Gyuto, but to a lesser extent. The two lasers I have (Ashi Ginga and Gesshin Uraku) seem to be truly even.
Funny that I never noticed this. I'll try out how much of a difference this makes. Oh and write to TF if they make the knives I ordered lefties. Good to have come across this now.

 

[esoo]

yeah, it sucks. The edge may be centered in blade, but with the left side flat and right convex, you end up with a blade that will have more sticking issues than a right handed user.

Here is a Myojin where you can see the grind looks very balanced on either side of the core:

And compare that to the Kurosaki where you clearly see the grind is not symmetric around the core:

 

[miggus]

Great photos @esoo. Jup, that's definitely the case. This might explain why I have been drawn towards lasers. They don't have this issue to begin with. I looked up my knives on some vendor's pages - not one mentions this. All they write is that the grind is 50/50. I even inquired with one, well known vendor and got the reply that yes, these knives can be equally used by left-handed and right-handed people. Wow...

I wonder how difficult it is to learn to cut with the right hand lol. I'm not a pro, so ultimate speed isn't a priority. Might be less effort than replacing all the knives

 

[esoo]

If you look closely, you Ashi is probably a right biased knife as well (based on choil shots I have). It's just harder to tell on such a thin knife (and make less difference). Put a straight edge against the blade at varying spots and see if it sits flat or is convex.

And yeah, many retailers will say that the knife can be used by either hand (which is true). It just overlooks the performance differences.

 

[superworrier]

I feel like saying symmetric knives are "very rare" overstates it, and many of these knives are 60/40 (and aren't even consistently so) so there wouldn't be much of a difference. And yeah, there are asymmetric lasers Ashi/Takada as named above.

 

[JayS20]

I also know a guy who is left handed and I'm so glad I'm not, especially in the knife game. He tried quite some knives and you can see most stick quite some on the left side. They won't work for lefties. Not only talking about Japanese knives but also Western makers. Most of my knives have a righty bias.
I tried his lefty Kippington and it also doesn't really work for me.
My Wat is absolutely not symmetrical

 

[Benuser]

A

I also know a guy who is left handed and I'm so glad I'm not, especially in the knife game. He tried quite some knives and you can see most stick quite some on the left side. They won't work for lefties. Not only talking about Japanese knives but also Western makers. Most of my knives have a righty bias.

When the Japanese started making Western knives they took, as everybody in that time, the Sabatier as a model. The only they changed was moving the edge to the left. The idea of a convexed right face and a flatter left one, with only a curve in the last two centimetres, came from Sabatier around 1890. A strictly symmetric blade with both sides being each others' exact mirror image is likely to terribly wedge.
I sharpen my vintage Sabs, Solingen or Sheffields not differently than my Japanese: following the right face into the right bevel, and doing for the left bevel whatever is needed to keep the steering acceptable. The result is a moderate asymmetric geometry.

 

[esoo]

And yeah, there are asymmetric lasers Ashi/Takada as named above.

My Takada Ginsan was surprisingly symmetrical - or at least enough that as a lefty food release was very good. Best lightweight 210 I've used.

 

[Martybli]

Holy cow, I'd be very tempted to contact @DanielC and ask him if this has a bias.

Gorgeous knife at very attractive price!

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/167x59mm-sanmai-nakiri.60160/#post-929563

I’ve just asked him. This is where I have no idea! Has he made this knife? Looks nice but I don’t really know what to look for. I do however have an appreciation over a handmade piece that a mass produced knife. Sorry for all the questions, you are a great help.