Why are high-quality Japanese knives so much less expensive than those made elsewhere?

[gyutorific]

Curious as to why the prices of high-quality, artisan-made knives in the US (and elsewhere) are so much higher than roughly comparable Japanese-made knives. There are a ton of high-quality Japanese artisan-made knives in the US$200-400 range. Seems like roughly that same-level knife made elsewhere is more like US$400-$700 (at least where I am in the US). I seriously doubt most of these non-Japanese artisans are getting wealthy at the craft, so what’s the story?

Is it:
Exchange rate?
Cost of materials?
An excess of makers in a place like Sakai Cityi, which drives the prices down?
Cheap access to all kinds of cheaper knife-making support and supplies services in a knife-making center like Sakai City?
Access to cheap, maybe family labor to do some of the work there?
Super efficient production in Japan because they’ve been doing it so much longer than others?
Efficiency through specialization (one guy does the forging, another the sharpening, another the handle, etc.)
Other reasons?

 

[chinacats]

One thing off the top of my head is that most western knives involve hand made handles. This involves quite a bit of labor vs having someone do a quick burn in of an inexpensively produced wa handle. Edit to add that in my mind I'd often be just as happy with a ho/horn cheapie.

 

[ian]

I always thought it was the size and efficiency of the production. E.g. most of the western makers we talk about here are making very few knives, a lot of them custom, while the $200-$400 knives we see from Japanese makers are typically made in much higher quantities, without customization, and often with specialized labor.

Then again, my entire knowledge base basically comes from KKF, so I’ll be interested to hear what someone with actual experience says here...

 

[Sharpchef]

I think, most (not all japanese blacksmiths/knifemakers) use prelaminatet Material and forge/grind very high numbers... of just one knife.

There was a video, i don`t find it anymore, my bad... Showing one japanese smith (maybe it was shiraki) forging about 3-5 blades per minute...this was impressive... In the backround there are at least 5 workers grinding and installing handles, sharpening etc...

This is why a wüsthoff/zwilling or similar are that "cheap".... A manufacturing process... with many people involved.

Shigefusa or Kato are not that "cheap" btw.

But makers like Xerxes offers relativ cheap knifes on his webpage.... But most makers that are "hyped" sometimes only offer knifes for prices we could cry.....
"Western prices":
This is because they work (mostly) alone, and they have to fulfill your wishes with demands sometimes a high number of emails, or telephone calls.... etc.

The most japanese bladesmiths make their own thing... So no extra geometry, superb steel/handle material etc....

Greets Sebastian.

 

[Corradobrit1]

OsakaJoe and Jon Broida probably have good insights. I think a lot comes down to economies of scale. It takes longer imo for one guy to forge, grind, sharpen, handle and finish a knife than a group of artisans specializing in a particular aspect of production. Although some Western makers seem pretty prolific eg 300-400 knives per year, but I'm not sure if that is sustainable for a one man operation.

 

[Barmoley]

Economies of scale is a large part of it, but also like @chinacats wrote more expensive, complex handles. Customer interaction and special requests too. Also, when we say comparable in the $200 - $400 range, that is not entirely true. In the $400 range, western made knives, in my limited experience, are finished better, starting from the handle and all the other rounding and polishing. Some here prefer simple handles and don't care about rounded choil and spine, but most western made knives in this range are finished better none the less. Japanese knives with comparable fit and finish are usually much more expensive as well and are in line with western knives as far as price.

 

[NO ChoP!]

I do not find this to be true at all. I can buy a Marko made mono steel gyuto for ~$500; superior fit and finish; quality handle materials. A similar quality fit and finish knife, say Fujiyama, which is clad, and with lesser handle is the same ballpark.

I can pick up a number of diferentially hardened W2 knives from US makers for sub $1000, heck, maybe even sub $700. Pretty sure Japanese Honyaki are ~$1500 these days.

Mizuno suminigashi is $1350. Pretty much buys you into all US makers except maybe the very top echelon.

Plus, most US makers are custom. As in one off. A Mizuno suminigashi maybe special, even rare, but they are not one of a kind.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Now, maybe there is room for a maker to compete with midtech style, more affordable, streamlined produced knives with simpler handles and machined finishes within that $200 to $400 point...

 

[Chicagohawkie]

I do not find this to be true at all. I can buy a Marko made mono steel gyuto for ~$500; superior fit and finish; quality handle materials. A similar quality fit and finish knife, say Fujiyama, which is clad, and with lesser handle is the same ballpark.

I can pick up a number of diferentially hardened W2 knives from US makers for sub $1000, heck, maybe even sub $700. Pretty sure Japanese Honyaki are ~$1500 these days.

Mizuno suminigashi is $1350. Pretty much buys you into all US makers except maybe the very top echelon.

Plus, most US makers are custom. As in one off. A Mizuno suminigashi maybe special, even rare, but they are not one of a kind.

Your forgetting that Japanese knives are now channel products. The makers are getting a fraction of what they sell in US markets. Manufacturer/ distributor/ wholesaler and then off to the US retail 100 percent mark up! US custom knife makers selling off their websites and Instagram are realizing most of the sale prices. Big difference.

 

[panda]

Because they are built for use and not to be drawer queen. Also don't come with stupid handles or spend hours polishing it..

 

[pecanbery]

US/Australian makers seem to do much smaller volumes and are willing to interact with the customer about their requirements. I get the feeling most Japanese makers just prioritize volume, which doesn't necessarily mean lower quality but it can show in poorer fit and finish. But that is just a big generalization, there are some very high end Japanese makers charging a lot obviously.

 

[osakajoe]

This was discussed a lot here
Western makers vs. established japanese smiths
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...makers-vs.-established-japanese-smiths.38969/

OsakaJoe and Jon Broida probably have good insights. I think a lot comes down to economies of scale. It takes longer imo for one guy to forge, grind, sharpen, handle and finish a knife than a group of artisans specializing in a particular aspect of production..

My comments are in there somewhere in the middle. But that’s a good short summary of things.

Mizuno suminigashi is $1350. Pretty much buys you into all US makers except maybe the very top echelon.

Ignore this comment if your comparing maker to maker. Mizuno tanrejo is mostly a wholesaler with a knife shop that has knives produced for them. So obviously slightly higher prices then direct sales from a maker (if they happen to sell directly).

 

[Keith Sinclair]

That was a pretty good thread. My better half tapes a lot of NHK world. Many are cooking shows. Growing and harvesting food, not to mention cleaning fish. The knives used in those shows are far better quality than what the average Westerner uses. Like cutting heads of cabbage from the ground using a San Mai carbon core blade. I am talking about average user not knife nuts like most here. Japan is a blade culture with more talented Smith's knives are ground on large water wheels, sharpened , handles turned by people good at their tasks. A custom Western knife forger must do everything start to finish. It is like the older hand built cars, Henry Ford mass production line spit them out. Later higher paid union car and motorcycle line workers lost their jobs to Japanese workers who take pride in their work no matter how small. Regan enforced a no more than 700cc MC from Japan to save Harley from going under. Trump is doing it now.