Would you be disappointed with this handle?

[adam92]

I have received the handle like this before, similar gap as yours, when I continue using I was worry the water can go inside the tang & make inside rust, after one month continues using the water actually did go into the handle, I end up fixing by myself with glue, after that have no issue at all, easy DIY job.

 

[toddnmd]

I like the look of metal spacers, but ALL my handles with metal spacers now have this issue to some extent. I think it’s more the nature of different materials rather than a defect. I suspect sanding the metal down would only be a temporary solution.
I’ve just come to accept it and not let it bother me. And one could argue there’s a marginal improvement in grip.
I’m sure the extent of the issue is somewhat dependent on the climate you’re in.

 

[Bear]

Even if it was perfect when you received it eventually it would end up with this problem, if your looking to get rid of the knife I would be willing to take it off of your hands handle and all.

 

[Lurkernomore]

That’s a perfectly fine handle and a trustworthy retailer. I have never seen a perfectly flush ring, not even on 4000$ knives.
Magnolia and horn handles are pretty much flush. Yew and horn ones are rarely ever flush, ebony ones are flush. Rings suck, the Chinese and Americans are heavily into them though.

No one in the Sakai knife industry stabilizes their wood and no one stabilizes their horn.
The issue here is that there’s obviously no frame of reference and all kinds of ridiculous statements are being made.

 

[JoBone]

As someone who both sells knives and makes handles here is my take.

I think Tosho is a very reputable company. You pay a little extra for their knives, which is common when you have a store front. However, there is no better way to pick out a knife than going in a shop and seeing it first hand. If the knife has been used, then they provided a reasonable offer.

Blonde v Black
Blonde comes from cow, black comes from water buffalo. Cow horn moves more than buffalo horn

Horn and metal :
Like anyone making handles, it’s a learning process and we make mistakes. Horn next to metal is difficult to get right and it’s taken me a while to try to nail it down. Since a lot of handle makers have asked me for advice on this here are my suggestions.

Curing horn
Horn is less predictable than wood, it moves differently and it’s harder to know when it’s fully cured.
The best way to cure horn is with time. I try to buy horn for 2 years out, but it is difficult to do. If you use the hidden dowel method, cut your ferrules a little long and drill them. Drilling out the unused part early, gives the horn more surface area to breathe, so it will cure faster. Also, less to cure. Oil the ends to help splitting.

When it’s time to use the horn, sand it down, which is why I cut them a little long. This will help with the micro splitting on the ends.

Patience
This is the part that make a huge difference. After the handle is shaped, it should be smooth as silk. Set it aside for at least a week and then run your fingernail over it. If there is movement, sand again and let it sit another week or so. Repeat until you are confident that it’s good. It may take a long time…

If someone wants a horn handle in a hurry, this is going to drive them nuts. I sent a handful out too early and wish I hadn’t. I think it’s better to have someone irritated at me early on, then later after the handle causes the issues.

Long term, I don’t think there is a way to have organic materials next to metal without movement. If you buy a handle with metal spacers, then you will feel it at some point. How much depends on many factors.

 

[cotedupy]

That thin black line (looks-like-a-gap-but-not-a-gap) is the epoxy or glue connecting the ferrule btw. It isn't the result of stuff moving after the handle has been made I don't think - someone basically just needed to push the parts together harder when glue-ing the blank. It may (almost always does) move around after being made, and that will mean the metal can be felt, but the line isn't because of that - it would have been there beforehand.

It's an unusually thick join here certainly, but to some extent the same thing will be there on all multi-part handles. Though if you have dark wood, or dark horn, then it blends in and is effectively invisible. It can become noticeable if you have blonde horn against light wood, or as in this instance - light metal.

I play around with this sometimes, especially on multi-part spacers when sometimes a thin dark division line can look nice.

 

[djacobson]

That thin black line (looks-like-a-gap-but-not-a-gap) is the epoxy or glue connecting the ferrule btw. It isn't the result of stuff moving after the handle has been made I don't think - someone basically just needed to push the parts together harder when glue-ing the blank. It may (almost always does) move around after being made, and that will mean the metal can be felt, but the line isn't because of that - it would have been there beforehand.

It's an unusually thick join here certainly, but to some extent the same thing will be there on all multi-part handles. Though if you have dark wood, or dark horn, then it blends in and is effectively invisible. It can become noticeable if you have blonde horn against light wood, or as in this instance - light metal.

I play around with this sometimes, especially on multi-part spacers when sometimes a thin dark division line can look nice.

Wow, this sealed it for me. Looking at the pictures again it seems clear that it's glue. Looking at a different handle it's even more apparent with the white glue.
https://www.toshoknifearts.com/en-us/products/p0100s
So we aren't really talking about a gap as much as minor differences in circumference between material. Sanding would seem an easy fix if that's the concern.

I think @JoBone also nailed in reference to time. Patience in handle making will go a long way to preventing, but eventually (years?) there will be some change with the horn and wood.

 

[cotedupy]

Wow, this sealed it for me. Looking at the pictures again it seems clear that it's glue. Looking at a different handle it's even more apparent with the white glue.
https://www.toshoknifearts.com/en-us/products/p0100s
So we aren't really talking about a gap as much as minor differences in circumference between material. Sanding would seem an easy fix if that's the concern.

I think @JoBone also nailed in reference to time. Patience in handle making will go a long way to preventing, but eventually (years?) there will be some change with the horn and wood.

Oh yeah - they've done the same with white glue there haven't they... I think it's intentional and they're making it a feature.

Or possibly even a thin strip of something else in there... (?)

 

[cotedupy]

Here's the handle I've made for my Tinker Tank, where I specifically used a decent amount of epoxy and no pressure when glue-ing the two steel washers together for the spacer. To give a thin division line between them, which I think looks quite good here:

 

[JoBone]

The ‘gap’ is probably g10 or vulcanize fiber. This can be done for a number of reasons, some of which were learned the hard way.

Aesthetics - looks good
Heat buffer - metal can get hot. When working with heat sensitive materials like horn or stone, using a heat buffer lowers the risk of damaging the materials
Tactical - if the horn shrinks, it helps smooth the transition between horn and metal as the material is softer
Adhesion - metal is difficult to bond. If the horn shrinks next to metal, it is more likely to separate, creating a real gap. However, if you use vf or g10 and the horn shrinks, it is less likely to separate

 

[runninscared]

after looking through tosho’s website at other handles posted, there are a few that look the same as mine. This seems to be somewhat common with this type of handle construction.

With that in mind I now feel like a jackass for making vague insinuations that this may have been passed off on me just to dump a shoddy handle. For that I apologize.

Also to reiterate for those messaging me: at this time this knife is not for sale

for the other people messaging me offering advice and even offering to fix this handle for free: thank you all for your kindness, I am grateful.

Within the coming weeks you will see a post on bst with a couple heavily discounted knives to show my appreciation.

Thanks again kkf!

 

[NotAddictedYet]

Very educational thread, I never had a knife with metal spacers so this is all new to me..thanks for sharing all the insights.

Congrats to OP for a stunning knife, looked at it when Tosho had their moving sale but wallet is shy.

 

[gregfisk]

What is so interesting to me as a somewhat new knife maker/handle maker is people don’t have a problem with the way the blade doesn’t seat all the way with the horn. That bothers me way more than the gap in the spacer. Even though that spacer gap bothers me a lot as well. I’m currently making handles that are basically nothing but spacers the entire length of the handle using several different types of materials including metal. There are often ridge lines between materials that I try to avoid but as has been stated it’s what happens over time using different types of materials. I don’t ever have gaps though since I would consider that unacceptable. I don’t sell my knives or handles but I can’t even imagine sending out a knife with either of the problems that knife has. I will admit I’m fairly picky but still. With the amount of money that people spend on these knives it’s hard for me to understand the acceptance of these types of flaws.

 

[JoBone]

What is so interesting to me as a somewhat new knife maker/handle maker is people don’t have a problem with the way the blade doesn’t seat all the way with the horn. That bothers me way more than the gap in the spacer.

That’s intentional.

It harkens to the days when you burned a handle into the wood. As it loosened with time, you hit it the end of the handle with a hammer to tighten it. The machi gap gave the user room to tighten with time, thus making the handle last longer.

Now, it decorative but steeped in tradition.

 

[Tapio]

What is so interesting to me as a somewhat new knife maker/handle maker is people don’t have a problem with the way the blade doesn’t seat all the way with the horn. That bothers me way more than the gap in the spacer.

I’m happy to see that gap. The tang is not bottoming out when there is a gap.

 

[bahamaroot]

All handles can develop a step between different materials, and many do, it's not just handles with metal spacers. I have Ho wood/Horn handles that have steps to Konosuke Khii Ebony handles that have developed steps between the two different woods. Some handles just do it worse than others and some handles are easier to fix given the materials they are made from. Those that keep saying this is a flaw in the handles are insinuating someone did something wrong when making the handle and that this something that can be avoided. That is not the case, it is an unavoidable characteristic of joining two different materials or woods in a handle. One that some can live with and some can't. And stabilized woods help but does not guarantee this will not happen.

 

[gregfisk]

That’s intentional.

It harkens to the days when you burned a handle into the wood. As it loosened with time, you hit it the end of the handle with a hammer to tighten it. The machi gap gave the user room to tighten with time, thus making the handle last longer.

Now, it decorative but steeped in tradition.

Thanks for the education, I appreciate the history. I didn’t know that but it makes sense. I epoxy my tangs into place and when I first started I was using 5 minute epoxy. I had a handle that I didn’t get seated fast enough and it didn’t seat properly. I just thought it was ruined because the handle didn’t fit flush to the base of the knife. I guess I shouldn’t have worried about it.

Many of my handles have slight ridges where metal meets wood and where micarta or G-10 meets wood or metal. I don’t get gaps though, at least not in the time I’ve had them so far. The oldest one is only about a year old though so it might happen as they get older.

 

[Se1ryu]

recently purchased a knife with a handle with an annoying defect, at least what i consider a defect anyway. but after looking around i see it commented often "these are handmade products" to which some defects should be acceptable. so i figured id ask some fellow KKF'ers their opinion on it.



the part that bothers me is the gap between the horn ferrule and metal spacer. i have a couple knives (although vastly cheaper) that have bumps where a plastic ferrule is smaller than the exposed wood where it meets, which leaves a large bump but its rounded and never bothered me. but the silver spacer on this handle has a sort of sharp edge since its squared off that just grabs my finger right where my middle finger rests in a pinch grip.

so my question is, would this be something that bothers you? knife is a B1 kono fuji for those curious.

Handle with wood + horn + metal spacer is beautiful and sometimes metal spacer raised a little bit because wood and horn can shrink but metal cannot. It's perfectly fine. I won't bother to sand it down but you can if you want it to. Just like a lot of people said in this forum, just tapped your wood and horn and sand the metal spacer. That black epoxy you cannot do anything about it. I never have a handle with an epoxy popping out out like that. Thats why I am very picky about the handle and always ask the seller about the actual handle. Hope you learn a lot like we all do in this forum and from experience. Cheers..

 

[inferno]

recently purchased a knife with a handle with an annoying defect, at least what i consider a defect anyway. but after looking around i see it commented often "these are handmade products" to which some defects should be acceptable. so i figured id ask some fellow KKF'ers their opinion on it.



the part that bothers me is the gap between the horn ferrule and metal spacer. i have a couple knives (although vastly cheaper) that have bumps where a plastic ferrule is smaller than the exposed wood where it meets, which leaves a large bump but its rounded and never bothered me. but the silver spacer on this handle has a sort of sharp edge since its squared off that just grabs my finger right where my middle finger rests in a pinch grip.

so my question is, would this be something that bothers you? knife is a B1 kono fuji for those curious.

the problem with metal spacers is that they are harder than the surrounding wood/horn/plastic. so they tend to stick out more after grinding.

you can fix this by removing the handle, and sanding everything flat with a sandpaper taped on a flat surface. it will probably take 30 minutes or so.

 

[inferno]

No matter what the horn and wood must be stabilized,

NO THEY DONT!

I have been making multi component handles for at least 10 years. and i have never used any stabilized wood ever.
what i do is rub/soak the handle with tung oil (but any hardening oil will work). tung oil penetrates the wood and polymerizes, and basically turns into a plastic. making the handle completely waterproof.

never had a problem. and i have handles that are over 10 years old.

stabilized wood is just the lazy way of doing the required work. also i'm fairly certain you cant stabilize horn at all. since its too dense, and non porous.

 

[gregfisk]

NO THEY DONT!

I have been making multi component handles for at least 10 years. and i have never used any stabilized wood ever.
what i do is rub/soak the handle with tung oil (but any hardening oil will work). tung oil penetrates the wood and polymerizes, and basically turns into a plastic. making the handle completely waterproof.

never had a problem. and i have handles that are over 10 years old.

stabilized wood is just the lazy way of doing the required work. also i'm fairly certain you cant stabilize horn at all. since its too dense, and non porous.

I also use several types of wood which none are stabilized. I use these woods along with g10, micarta, epoxy resin, plastic, aluminum and copper. I also seal the entire handle with tung oil and then paste wax. I do get slight high areas because everything else is softer than the metal spacers. It’s typically not enough of a problem to worry about but you can wait for the wood to naturally stabilize over time and then lightly sand the handle smooth again. I think sealing everything is key to keeping the wood from changing over time.

 

[inferno]

It’s typically not enough of a problem to worry about but you can wait for the wood to naturally stabilize over time and then lightly sand the handle smooth again. I think sealing everything is key to keeping the wood from changing over time.

exactly.

i think i made this in 2012 or 14 or something. it has a titanium bolster plate. just for fun. then its masur-turkish walnut-masur
still going strong. glued with 24h epoxy. i put 1 new layer of tung oil on there a few years ago. thats it. it looks like new.

 

[DitmasPork]

Useful thread. Any advice for appropriate sandpaper progression to sand down a metal spacer between horn and wood? Does sanding down metal take much longer than horn or wood? I can live with my metal spacer, but it is an annoyance.

 

[tostadas]

Useful thread. Any advice for appropriate sandpaper progression to sand down a metal spacer between horn and wood? Does sanding down metal take much longer than horn or wood? I can live with my metal spacer, but it is an annoyance.
View attachment 204727

Soft metal such as the kind used in handle spacers is really easy to sand. Just make sure to use a hard backing to your sanding medium.

 

[DitmasPork]

Soft metal such as the kind used in handle spacers is really easy to sand. Just make sure to use a hard backing to your sanding medium.

Cheers! Think I may have a go at it this afternoon.

 

[bsfsu]

No one has thought that the handle may have been fine at the quality control at the handle factory? And then it was fine at the quality control of the handle fitter?

I have seen a few of these handles, they are not necessarily 'perfect' and they do cost a lot of money. The high end Japanese knife makers are happy to use them so......?

We are dealing with handmade products. If you would like a perfect knife get one that is finished by a computer and machine. In my mind if a Japanese knife is perfect in every way it would take away from the uniqueness that we look for. The imperfections show the handmade origins of the knife.

 

[JoBone]

Useful thread. Any advice for appropriate sandpaper progression to sand down a metal spacer between horn and wood?

This is how I would take it on
1) remove the handle. Mark on the butt which side is up (pencil or tape). Makes it easier when reattaching.
2) sand each edge on a firm surface. I use a belt sander, but sand paper on a hard surface like a table also works. I would start with 120 or 220 then work up.
3) soften the edges, especially on the metal.
4) refinish or buff. If it’s a rosewood, just buff, can be hand buffed
5) re-attach handle

What I would not do it take a piece of sand paper and try to hand sand it. The metal need more pressure, so you need to ensure you are sanding metal not wood. If it’s a soft surface, you will make it worse or the same.

Shortcut -
I’ve used a dremel before and the results were okay, but not pro quality. Just use a slow rotation and don’t sneeze