Would you thin?

[Wolffire99]

Takeda 177mm bunka. Just doesn’t feel great going through vegetables despite being shaving sharp. Almost like it needs a little extra push or maybe I’m just spoiled by my takamura. Love the height, weight, and shape though.

 

[M1k3]

Ease the shoulders a bit, especially on the non-dominant side.

 

[miggus]

I have a Moritaka 270 Gyuto that has a shinogi line that's pretty low, too, even though not as low as Takeda's knives. It wasn't a huge amount of fun cutting with it, I raised the shinogi line about 2mm and eased the shoulders. It works much better now.

The hard part is doing this so it is well-done and aesthetically pleasing. Haven't managed that so far. Be aware that you probably will ruin that pretty clear line to the KU finish. You'll want to invest some time to see how to preserve it if that is a priority. Functionwise, this has been a total win for me.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/project-rebeveling-a-moritaka-270-gyuto.62354/

 

[ethompson]

What’s the width at the shoulder?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yep, start slow and ease the shoulders. Can always take off more, can't put it back on. Ease up on it.

 

[bahamaroot]

Just one more example why I avoid Takeda....

 

[Pie]

Sharpen a couple times and focus on the shoulder facet, barely perceptible visually but the results will be felt.

I’m slowly taking my gyuto down this path, maybe a few more times and it’ll hit the balance between release and wedgy.

 

[The_Real_Self]

This maker has been on my radar for a while and I've wanted a knife from him but the low grind just had me thinking this would be the result. It seems he uses pretty thin stock but it's definitely excessive from what it sounds like. I really like the idea of light curvature full height convex for kitchen work or full flat grind if factory knife.

It's not traditional but I really feel that this is just based on an expectation that the customer will thin out to their liking if it's too overbuilt. That is what Murray Carter teaches as a traditional bladesmith, so it would suggest other makers think similarly. Most people I feel will be unable to really do a good job at changing the geometry in a clean fashion. I see this as best done on a Tormek freehand with a bit of rocking motion on the blade to give a convex.

I just got a couple Nakiri's from Fujiwara, just the base japanese style model, the bevels are superb on it but I feel they are VERY heavy for my uses. The real issue comes in when you are torn between aesthetics (preserving what the maker put on) or ending up with something that may look aweful but cuts much better. I believe most people just prefer to leave as is...

 

[RRLOVER]

Just one more example why I avoid Takeda....

What he Said!!!

 

[btbyrd]

I had similar issues with mine until I got it thinned. My 210 felt unsafe doing horizontal cuts on onions, and it was kind of a nightmare on vertical cuts too. I sent it to District Cutlery, which has made a cottage industry out of thinning Takedas. I asked them to preserve the S grind, as that's what makes Takedas distinctive. They will also just grind away the forged geometry completely on a bench grinder, and I am not really a fan of that approach. You lose the food release that Takedas are known for. They fixed the problems, preserved the grind, and put a screaming edge on it. If you do get it thinned and sharpened by them, it's not a bad idea to have them throw a microbevel on the final edge for stability's sake.

 

[The_Real_Self]

I had similar issues with mine until I got it thinned. My 210 felt unsafe doing horizontal cuts on onions, and it was kind of a nightmare on vertical cuts too. I sent it to District Cutlery, which has made a cottage industry out of thinning Takedas. I asked them to preserve the S grind, as that's what makes Takedas distinctive. They will also just grind away the forged geometry completely on a bench grinder, and I am not really a fan of that approach. You lose the food release that Takedas are known for. They fixed the problems, preserved the grind, and put a screaming edge on it. If you do get it thinned and sharpened by them, it's not a bad idea to have them throw a microbevel on the final edge for stability's sake.

I had no idea these were ground that way, I've never seen it mentioned as being s-Grind with retailers. Is it hollowed behind the bevel on both sides or just one?

 

[btbyrd]

It's common to all their standard knives (excluding things like the honesuki and deba). Except for the spine, the blades are thickest about 1cm behind the edge, right where the visible grind stops. Behind that, there's a small hollow that helps with food release. It's not ground in, it's pounded in with the forge hammer. This is visible in most choil shots, but is more pronounced in some. Because of how they're made there can be a lot of variation in how each one performs.

Here's an image I found (I forget who made it, so apologies for reposting someone else's content) showing the classic shape of Takeda's knives:

And here's a choil shot of my 300mm:

Just looking at the choil might not tell the whole story, especially on a longer knife. My 300mm knife was chunky at the heel but nice and thin in the front third of the knife. It was like two or three different knives in one depending on where you used it. I liked that.

People sometimes talk about the "shoulders" on Takedas, and those are the widest part of the blade behind the edge on either side. They're usually not in quite the same place. Neither of mine have asymmetrical bevels like that, and the OP's bunka doesn't either. The shoulder on the right side is closer to the edge than it is on the left side.

Takedas are thin knives overall, but because of how they're made, they can sometimes be bad cutters because they're thick behind the edge with fat shoulders that wedge. Thinning Takedas is about knocking the shoulders back so they wedge less. The cladding is quite abrasion resistant, so this task can take a lot of time to do properly.

 

[The_Real_Self]

It's common to all their standard knives (excluding things like the honesuki and deba). Except for the spine, the blades are thickest about 1cm behind the edge, right where the visible grind stops. Behind that, there's a small hollow that helps with food release. It's not ground in, it's pounded in with the forge hammer. This is visible in most choil shots, but is more pronounced in some. Because of how they're made there can be a lot of variation in how each one performs.

Here's an image I found (I forget who made it, so apologies for reposting someone else's content) showing the classic shape of Takeda's knives:

View attachment 217012

And here's a choil shot of my 300mm:

View attachment 217011

Just looking at the choil might not tell the whole story, especially on a longer knife. My 300mm knife was chunky at the heel but nice and thin in the front third of the knife. It was like two or three different knives in one depending on where you used it. I liked that.

People sometimes talk about the "shoulders" on Takedas, and those are the widest part of the blade behind the edge on either side. They're usually not in quite the same place. Neither of mine have asymmetrical bevels like that, and the OP's bunka doesn't either. The shoulder on the right side is closer to the edge than it is on the left side.

Takedas are thin knives overall, but because of how they're made, they can sometimes be bad cutters because they're thick behind the edge with fat shoulders that wedge. Thinning Takedas is about knocking the shoulders back so they wedge less. The cladding is quite abrasion resistant, so this task can take a lot of time to do properly.

Why on earth would the cladding be difficult to grind? It should be quite soft if it's anything like most japanese knives... I am struggling to imagine abrasion resistant cladding. I was under the impression that the reason they are made this way is to assist thinning the knives.

 

[btbyrd]

If you're struggling to imagine abrasion resistant cladding, I invite you to try thinning a stainless clad Takeda.

 

[Delat]

Why on earth would the cladding be difficult to grind? It should be quite soft if it's anything like most japanese knives... I am struggling to imagine abrasion resistant cladding. I was under the impression that the reason they are made this way is to assist thinning the knives.

I haven’t thinned many knives but I’ve rounded the spine on several and cladding can range from really soft to “what the heck is this thing actually a monosteel?”

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Why on earth would the cladding be difficult to grind? It should be quite soft if it's anything like most japanese knives... I am struggling to imagine abrasion resistant cladding. I was under the impression that the reason they are made this way is to assist thinning the knives.

You ever try thinning stainless cladding?

 

[The_Real_Self]

You ever try thinning stainless cladding?

I have, which is why I'm confused. The knife in my avatar is by Fujiwara and the cladding grinds like butter on my Red Amakusa. It wears so easily that I end up with a gray covered stone in about a minute at lower pressures.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I have, which is why I'm confused. The knife in my avatar is by Fujiwara and the cladding grinds like butter on my Red Amakusa. It wears so easily that I end up with a gray covered stone in about a minute at lower pressures.

A lot of stainless sucks to work on. Getting a gray covered stone is one thing, achieving actual thinning is another. Not all stainless cladding is the same.

 

[M1k3]

A lot of stainless sucks to work on. Getting a gray covered stone is one thing, achieving actual thinning is another. Not all stainless cladding is the same.

^^^^^

Some stainless cladding it seems like you wave it around a stone and it comes off easily. Other stainless just gives the middle finger. Most fall somewhere in between.

 

[The_Real_Self]

A lot of stainless sucks to work on. Getting a gray covered stone is one thing, achieving actual thinning is another. Not all stainless cladding is the same.

I guess this is one of those instances where pics would help, it looked like Bob Ross mixed up a big pile of gray paint on the surface. I'm not meaning that the stone just turned color, it was a pile of mud on a stone which has not displayed a tendency to mud virtually at all across many knives and steel. The only way I get it to slurry typically is by raising it with a diamond plate to flatten it.

 

[The_Real_Self]

^^^^^

Some stainless cladding it seems like you wave it around a stone and it comes off easily. Other stainless just gives the middle finger. Most fall somewhere in between.

I really think this has something to do with the tendency of the soft cladding to want to cause the stone to release abrasive rapidly more than allowing the abrasive to bite the steel and grind. It's almost as if the soft steel is grinding the stone rather than the other way around. It would be interesting to know what the RC hardness is of each of the cladding's used to see if there's a relationship there. I won't use clad knives on diamond plates for this reason and tend to be of the mind that if the steel not 60 RC or higher I prefer to keep it off in order to keep the diamonds from getting pulled off.

 

[Pie]

Takeda cladding + the core steel itself I find to dislike being removed. Maybe it’s the sheer width of the steel being ground, or the inherent difficulty of maintaining that angle + pressure with an unusual knife that makes it difficult to grind for me.

Idk. I’m not good at it, but I like fine tuning these little by little.

I have, which is why I'm confused. The knife in my avatar is by Fujiwara and the cladding grinds like butter on my Red Amakusa. It wears so easily that I end up with a gray covered stone in about a minute at lower pressures.

For what it’s worth, I also found TF cladding not super terrible to work with.

 

[The_Real_Self]

Takeda cladding + the core steel itself I find to dislike being removed. Maybe it’s the sheer width of the steel being ground, or the inherent difficulty of maintaining that angle + pressure with an unusual knife that makes it difficult to grind for me.

Idk. I’m not good at it, but I like fine tuning these little by little.


For what it’s worth, I also found TF cladding not super terrible to work with.

it is definitely something most people will not take to quickly, I believe. The best way I have found to do this is to just work in facets, meaning do not try and plane down a wide bevel but rather increase the number of bevels or facets and then eventually you end up with a convex that gives you a high grinding pressure because of the much smaller contact area on the stone than a flat bevel. This will be the quickest to grind, in theory, all other factors aside.

The knife I have in my avatar was thinned out a good bit and it was very uneven forged/ground upon going into thinning it. This can further complicate things because if the knife wasn't forged evenly you end up with high and low spots that can be confusing to deal with. If I were a beginner trying to thin this knife I would likely have questioned whether I did something to mess it up when in fact I just exposed an existing flaw.

 

[Pie]

it is definitely something most people will not take to quickly, I believe. The best way I have found to do this is to just work in facets, meaning do not try and plane down a wide bevel but rather increase the number of bevels or facets and then eventually you end up with a convex that gives you a high grinding pressure because of the much smaller contact area on the stone than a flat bevel. This will be the quickest to grind, in theory, all other factors aside.

Working hard to get to true zero, I ended up almost completely flat and had to reintroduce a bit of convex. Conveniently eating some shoulder along the way .

 

[The_Real_Self]

Working hard to get to true zero, I ended up almost completely flat and had to reintroduce a bit of convex. Conveniently eating some shoulder along the way .

Your comment about working to fine tune slowly is really spot on for people just getting going with this also. Gives you time to really get a sense for what needs to be removed and how far to go with it rather than just going at it on the stones like a crazy person.

Just paying attention to where you feel the knife want to stop mid cut at lower force will show you where the food is touching needs to be thinner there if you want lower force cutting. That said, most knives are so heavily overbuilt that one can often just go nuts until you start taking damage at apex and then thicken it a bit with some higher angle grinding to add some meat near the apex. This assumes good cutting techniques though.

I apologize as it seems I've caused a good bit of thread drift here... I won't add anything further here just to keep it focused on the OP.