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deebee said:
It's mostly subjective - I dislike the rat tail tang, the rough finish of the collar, and the laser etched branding. Truthfully, none of these issues would likely compromise performance. But they would detract from my enjoyment, and while I would have likely picked one up for $50 to satisfy my curiosity, I'd be happier investing $200-250 and getting into a knife that I'm more likely to pick up and enjoy interacting with.
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Hi Deebee,

I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 from China that has a teak handle and is cladded with a nice exterior finish. I compared it to CCK--with a finish that was unsatisfactory, and a Sugimoto, which had a great aesthetic, but didn't feel like a cleaver any more to me. I would have been willing to pay that higher price for the Sugi, but I preferred the Shibazi.

It's not all about price.
 
drrayeye said:
Hi Deebee,

I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 from China that has a teak handle and is cladded with a nice exterior finish. I compared it to CCK--with a finish that was unsatisfactory, and a Sugimoto, which had a great aesthetic, but didn't feel like a cleaver any more to me. I would have been willing to pay that higher price for the Sugi, but I preferred the Shibazi.

It's not all about price.
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what was it about the Sugimoto that didn't sit well with you? its grind? its weight?
 
drrayeye said:
Hi Deebee,

I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 from China that has a teak handle and is cladded with a nice exterior finish. I compared it to CCK--with a finish that was unsatisfactory, and a Sugimoto, which had a great aesthetic, but didn't feel like a cleaver any more to me. I would have been willing to pay that higher price for the Sugi, but I preferred the Shibazi.

It's not all about price.
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What about the sugimoto “didn’t feel like a cleaver anymore.” I’m a fan of mine. I have the small stainless and carbon, both feel like all cleavers to me. I’ve almost picked up one of those shibazis. I’ve heard from some saying the steel on those is somewhat meh. The steel, even the stainless, on the sugimoto is great imho.
 
deebee said:
There seems to be a gaping hole in the market where Suien used to reign supreme - they're out of stock everywhere with no restocking ETAs. Will look into Matsubara - thanks for the tip! Has anyone owned/used the Sugimoto #1? @kpham12 mentioned on a separate thread that it's essentially a scaled back #6. Is the Sugimoto geometry a poor fit for a cleaver novice?
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Sugimoto cleavers are really popular in Chinese restaurants in Japan, but they can be a little unwieldy and too workhorsey geometry-wise for someone new to cleavers, a very different experience from the CCK.
Japanese vegetable cleavers in general are heavier and more convex than the Chinese slicer counterparts so the weight does more of the work, but they are less nimble. Here is an example of an old pro making dumpling filling with a Sugimoto #6:


A very well constructed knife, but can be a little overkill if you’re cooking at home. The Sugimoto #1 is lighter and less tall so it’s a nice alternative, easier to use.

If you’re not cutting up huge vegetables or anything similar where you need something very long, the Sugimoto CM4030 is an excellent stainless option. Like @Jville says, the steel is really good. I like it more than most entry level stainless steels like VG10, 440C, AUS-8/10 and all the CrMoV steels. It’s at least on par with good heat treats of AEB-L or Ginsan from the Japanese market. Very easy to sharpen and takes an edge like good carbon steel with above average edge holding. It’s around 320 grams, so still has the weight to carry it through food, but isn’t overly heavy.

That being said, it’s 195mm long, so you lose a little bit of length compared to a full size cleaver at about 220mm. Fit and finish is also better than the CCK, but it’s nothing to get excited about. Honestly, besides the more expensive cleavers from companies like Konosuke or Migoto, the fit and finish on most Japanese cleavers ranges from “rough” to “good at best”. But for the Sugimoto CM4030, it takes like 10 minutes and some sandpaper and Windex to round the spine and choil for comfort. It also falls into your $200-$250 sweet spot. There’s also the carbon version, the Sugimoto SF4030 if you prefer carbon steel, but it’s a bit pricier. At worst, you buy one of these, test it out and if you don’t like it, resell it on the forum without taking a huge loss.

https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...se-cleaver-with-special-stainless-steel-blade
https://knivesandstones.us/products/sugimoto-stainless-steel-large-nakiri-chuka-190mm-cm4030
https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...small-chinese-cleaver-with-carbon-steel-blade
 
Great video @kpham12. Even had my wife watching. :)

Are there any decent carbon cleavers in the $50ish range? I like simple and rustic, not shoddy, but function-forward. I've looked at most of our local Asian markets and none of them sell cleavers.

Is it just better to step up to an entry CCK?
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Great video @kpham12. Even had my wife watching. :)

Are there any decent carbon cleavers in the $50ish range? I like simple and rustic, not shoddy, but function-forward. I've looked at most of our local Asian markets and none of them sell cleavers.

Is it just better to step up to an entry CCK?
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The Chopper King is right in that price point. They offer carbon core, with profile based on the CCK. I'd say both that and the CCK are good bets for decent quality without breaking the bank.

If you want bare bones carbon rustic, I can pick you one from my local Asian supply store for cheap, but shipping would cost twice as much as the knife itself.
 
tostadas said:
The Chopper King is right in that price point. They offer carbon core, with profile based on the CCK. I'd say both that and the CCK are good bets for decent quality without breaking the bank.

If you want bare bones carbon rustic, I can pick you one from my local Asian supply store for cheap, but shipping would cost twice as much as the knife itself.
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Thanks. The Chopper King is much more curved than say a CCK KF1303 and I'd think I'd prefer that flatter profile for this kind of knife. Am I thinking right?
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Thanks. The Chopper King is much more curved than say a CCK KF1303 and I'd think I'd prefer that flatter profile for this kind of knife. Am I thinking right?
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The new ones from the past month labeled as "small slicer" have the same profile as the CCK. Mark sent them a CCK and told them to copy the profile.

I have an older one and mine is curvier
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Great video @kpham12. Even had my wife watching. :)

Are there any decent carbon cleavers in the $50ish range? I like simple and rustic, not shoddy, but function-forward. I've looked at most of our local Asian markets and none of them sell cleavers.

Is it just better to step up to an entry CCK?
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https://tokushuknife.com/products/fook-kee-chinese-vegetable-cleaver?_pos=3&_sid=4f7d97004&_ss=r
These seem like a good CCK alternative in the same price bracket, but minus the CCK lasered on logo and QR code.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Thanks. The Chopper King is much more curved than say a CCK KF1303 and I'd think I'd prefer that flatter profile for this kind of knife. Am I thinking right?
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I started using carbon core Chopper Kings in both the large and medium sizes a few months ago. Big fan now but then I like a little curve in a cleaver's edge. I see you list PNW as your location. If you are near Portland try Fubonn or Hong Phat markets for the cheap carbon cleavers.
 
deebee said:
what was it about the Sugimoto that didn't sit well with you? its grind? its weight?
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"Feel" is always going hard to define--and it's personal. I think it's some combination of profile and weight. The Shibazi was/is the chopper I was looking for with just a few embellishments. The Sugi was the sports car that I didn't want to take on the freeway.
 
Jville said:
What about the sugimoto “didn’t feel like a cleaver anymore.” I’m a fan of mine. I have the small stainless and carbon, both feel like all cleavers to me. I’ve almost picked up one of those shibazis. I’ve heard from some saying the steel on those is somewhat meh. The steel, even the stainless, on the sugimoto is great imho.
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I have no doubt the sugi works for you, but it screams "push cut" to me when I want it to say "chopper." Different mind set.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Thanks. The Chopper King is much more curved than say a CCK KF1303 and I'd think I'd prefer that flatter profile for this kind of knife. Am I thinking right?
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I know I've said this before, but the vegetable cleaver you can get at wok shop is the least expensive way to get a decent cleaver to see if you like them:

1676148876680.png


I thinned mine slightly and sharpened just a little of the belly out since I bought it (and put some tung on the handle):

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@deltaplex that is fer-shur tempting!!!

I just don't know if they're right for me. I know this is a dead cheap trail method and if I do decide to tip my toe in this is likely to be the launch platform.

I always get, I don't, intrigued maybe? Enamored might be too strong. They definitely pique my interest but I'm not sure it goes beyond just how different, and dare I say, exotic they are. But I just feel like they're too big for my tastes and I'd likely have to change up my style a fair bit.

I've finally gotten a leg up on all the stuff I tried for a second and didn't like (kitchen and otherwise) and that was a struggle. Maybe I just have "stuff reduction trauma" that's preventing me from trying. 😁
 
deltaplex said:
I know I've said this before, but the vegetable cleaver you can get at wok shop is the least expensive way to get a decent cleaver to see if you like them:

View attachment 225098

I thinned mine slightly and sharpened just a little of the belly out since I bought it (and put some tung on the handle):

View attachment 225099View attachment 225100View attachment 225102
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Fine. Fine! Get that freakin' light out of my face and untie me! I give. You cleaver freaks can stop beating me now. You win.

:p

I mean, when your wife says, "Twenty five bucks shipped and you haven't bought it yet?"
 
Just got the White #2 Chopper King small slicer. A few minor imperfections on the face. Edge is fine for what it is. Handle is nice and comfortable. Good balance. Light and nimble for a cleaver. Have yet to cook or sharpen.
 

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blokey said:
Just ignore that guy, he shits up the thread a lot
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You want me ignored because I raise obvious issues related to the Chinese cleaver. I'd guess that in China there are at least 400 million Chinese cleavers used in Chinese households every day--few costing them much more than $15. Here in the US, one can find similar knives at Chinese grocery stores or restaurant supply--still very inexpensive. AMAZON made a point recently of identifying over 100 offered there--and AliExpress similarly offers many.

but

discussion on this thread focuses on only a few brands, and very expensive Japanese copies of Chinese cleavers, focusing on thinness, hand craftsmanship, and quality/hardness of steel.

Most home cooks and even workers at restaurants are happily using these inexpensive knives, and the Shibazi I purchased is a relatively refined version--well accepted, broadly reviewed--yet is seldom discussed on this thread--not to mention hundreds of others that are being sold and used.

I personally like what Japanese blacksmiths and other artisans around the world have done with the cleaver concept presented here--and you've presented some great ones--but need to admit that the very inexpensive ones can work just great for many users.
 
Chef Doom said:
Just got the White #2 Chopper King small slicer. A few minor imperfections on the face. Edge is fine for what it is. Handle is nice and comfortable. Good balance. Light and nimble for a cleaver. Have yet to cook or sharpen.
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Same as the one I have. I've been using it for several months and have found it to hold a fine edge for its intended purpose.
 
drrayeye said:
You want me ignored because I raise obvious issues related to the Chinese cleaver. I'd guess that in China there are at least 400 million Chinese cleavers used in Chinese households every day--few costing them much more than $15. Here in the US, one can find similar knives at Chinese grocery stores or restaurant supply--still very inexpensive. AMAZON made a point recently of identifying over 100 offered there--and AliExpress similarly offers many.

but

discussion on this thread focuses on only a few brands, and very expensive Japanese copies of Chinese cleavers, focusing on thinness, hand craftsmanship, and quality/hardness of steel.

Most home cooks and even workers at restaurants are happily using these inexpensive knives, and the Shibazi I purchased is a relatively refined version--well accepted, broadly reviewed--yet is seldom discussed on this thread--not to mention hundreds of others that are being sold and used.

I personally like what Japanese blacksmiths and other artisans around the world have done with the cleaver concept presented here--and you've presented some great ones--but need to admit that the very inexpensive ones can work just great for many users.
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I'm not going to defend any particular post, but I will say that for the most part, this community more often than not tends to lean towards the better version of things. I like to warn people not to get caught up with the high end hype for the very fact that going more expensive or higher end isn't always the solution.

Plus when the average cost of a person's collection runs into the $200 or $300 dollar range, they just can't see the need to recommend a $50 knife. Especially when it comes to over seas delivery. Who wants to pay $50 shipping charges for a $40 knife?

Generally, those higher end Japanese made Cleavers that go past $150 generally came from a desire to have the larger cleaver profile with Japanese steel and craftmanship. Naturally this is a clash of knife crafting methodology and it is hard to ask a craftsman that makes a $1000 Yanagiba with Blue #2 to make a large Chinese Cleaver with the same steel and same crafting methods for $50.

Just my 2 Cents. Don't pay it any mind.
 
Chef Doom said:
I'm not going to defend any particular post, but I will say that for the most part, this community more often than not tends to lean towards the better version of things. I like to warn people not to get caught up with the high end hype for the very fact that going more expensive or higher end isn't always the solution.

Plus when the average cost of a person's collection runs into the $200 or $300 dollar range, they just can't see the need to recommend a $50 knife. Especially when it comes to over seas delivery. Who wants to pay $50 shipping charges for a $40 knife?

Generally, those higher end Japanese made Cleavers that go past $150 generally came from a desire to have the larger cleaver profile with Japanese steel and craftmanship. Naturally this is a clash of knife crafting methodology and it is hard to ask a craftsman that makes a $1000 Yanagiba with Blue #2 to make a large Chinese Cleaver with the same steel and same crafting methods for $50.

Just my 2 Cents. Don't pay it any mind.
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I don’t even want to click to see what he said, go through his post history in this thread and you will see what I mean. No one has a problem with good cheap cleaver just like no one have a problem with good cheap Vic or Dexter, people don’t discuss them because they are not the focus here, if he want to discuss his experience that’s fine, but he just came in and calling this thread uninteresting then proceed to offer no new knowledge and couple of other stuff that’s just completely wrong.
 
blokey said:
I don’t even want to click to see what he said, go through his post history in this thread and you will see what I mean. No one has a problem with good cheap cleaver just like no one have a problem with good cheap Vic or Dexter, people don’t discuss them because they are not the focus here, if he want to discuss his experience that’s fine, but he just came in and calling this thread uninteresting then proceed to offer no new knowledge and couple of other stuff that’s just completely wrong.
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I wish I could find out why I'm so misunderstood.

First, I don't see what he posted recently as a negative and the opinions posted were valid. Of course you can disagree, I thought his responses were adequate.

Also, I never said people have a problem with cheap cleavers. You can't deny the fact that knife nerds on this forum generally will lean towards the more expensive side of things rather it be for personal purchases or recommendations. We all mostly know that our local Chinese grocery store carries cheap cleavers, or that Dexter supplies half of the Chinese restaurants in the U.S. For the most part few people come on these threads asking where to find a Dexter Cleaver. They mostly want something a little better in quality or a better performing steal.

I myself am guilty of all of these discretions but I hope you don't hold it against me.
 
Chef Doom said:
I wish I could find out why I'm so misunderstood.

First, I don't see what he posted recently as a negative and the opinions posted were valid. Of course you can disagree, I thought his responses were adequate.

Also, I never said people have a problem with cheap cleavers. You can't deny the fact that knife nerds on this forum generally will lean towards the more expensive side of things rather it be for personal purchases or recommendations. We all mostly know that our local Chinese grocery store carries cheap cleavers, or that Dexter supplies half of the Chinese restaurants in the U.S. For the most part few people come on these threads asking where to find a Dexter Cleaver. They mostly want something a little better in quality or a better performing steal.

I myself am guilty of all of these discretions but I hope you don't hold it against me.
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Oh I’m not hold against you, just kind reply to that guy.
 
To make one more pint (LIES!), I will say that there is a difference between how I would recommend a Gyuto versus a Cleaver.

I would never tell a person to go buy a Dexter Chef knife before buying a nice $100+ knife because I think that is utterly ridiculous. Both use and sharpening are going to be very different experiences and I prefer the diving in head first approach.

I will recommend getting a cheapo $30 full sized cleaver first because both use and experience will be similar to a more expensive version depending on steel and craftsmanship. A good 30 days of continuous use will provide the love it or hate it result that will satisfy most people.
 
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