Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.

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Chef Doom said:
To make one more pint (LIES!), I will say that there is a difference between how I would recommend a Gyuto versus a Cleaver.

I would never tell a person to go buy a Dexter Chef knife before buying a nice $100+ knife because I think that is utterly ridiculous. Both use and sharpening are going to be very different experiences and I prefer the diving in head first approach.

I will recommend getting a cheapo $30 full sized cleaver first because both use and experience will be similar to a more expensive version depending on steel and craftsmanship. A good 30 days of continuous use will provide the love it or hate it result that will satisfy most people.
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TBH that make sense for people who never used Chinese cleaver before, the profile and weight will be similar between the most expensive ones and cheaper ones, and the technique would be the same. However personally I have used cleaver all my life and for me it is easy to recommend a CCK (not exactly super cheap but not expensive either) since it would provide an excellent experience as a starter cleaver compare to cheap stuff. I personally own several cheap cleavers made by small smiths in China, I love them. I just don’t like how he comes in and basically says all the discussion is pointless because we did not include AliExpress cleaver. (Which is funny apart from Shibazi and Dengjia you are not going to see much people using those AliExpress Shun 7inch copy cleaver in China, many other popular brands like Wang Ma Zi, Zhang Xiao Quan, Supor or ASD are simply only doing domestic market)
 
blokey You make valid points. It doesn't make much sense to recommend knives you have never used or knives that are not popular on the forum. It's a weird dance we do when making recommendations.

Honestly, the argument "half the knives in half the kitchens" is meaningless in this space. I didn't take up this hobby based on what the average chef in the average kitchen uses. I'm not interested in buying a car that is most used by the Car Rental industry, or what the common pan is used in most kitchens are.

One take away when watching Youtube videos showing Chinese Chefs in various kitchen settings is that these guys most of the time don't give 2 cents about high end cutlery. They will use the same $15 knife for 30 years without even a thought about upgrading or replacing with something new. And will look at you like a space alien if you suggest otherwise. As if spending money is sacrilege. Which is the opposite of a Japanese Chef that will buy a $2000 Yanagiba and sharpen it for 30 years until it becomes the size of a large petty and will be quick to tell you he doesn't trust anything else no matter how much you try to persuade them.

There is only so much cultural corruption we can manage with our Western idals 😆
 
blokey said:
There is Chinese made cleaver above that range, this mostly custom or high end that’s not being sold overseas. I have 2 en route. One by XinGuo, one of my favorite Chinese maker and one by Fu Yi Dao, a maker focused mostly on restaurant supply like CCK but taping into the new higher end market recently, here’s videos of these two.
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Damn, homie. What does something like that XinGuo run if you can actually get a hold of one?
 
Chef Doom said:
blokey You make valid points. It doesn't make much sense to recommend knives you have never used or knives that are not popular on the forum. It's a weird dance we do when making recommendations.

Honestly, the argument "half the knives in half the kitchens" is meaningless in this space. I didn't take up this hobby based on what the average chef in the average kitchen uses. I'm not interested in buying a car that is most used by the Car Rental industry, or what the common pan is used in most kitchens are.

One take away when watching Youtube videos showing Chinese Chefs in various kitchen settings is that these guys most of the time don't give 2 cents about high end cutlery. They will use the same $15 knife for 30 years without even a thought about upgrading or replacing with something new. And will look at you like a space alien if you suggest otherwise. As if spending money is sacrilege. Which is the opposite of a Japanese Chef that will buy a $2000 Yanagiba and sharpen it for 30 years until it becomes the size of a large petty and will be quick to tell you he doesn't trust anything else no matter how much you try to persuade them.

There is only so much cultural corruption we can manage with our Western idals 😆
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I think more and more Chinese chefs are looking for better knives, in my group chat there’s a lot of Chinese chefs looking for better stuff, they use cheap stuff mainly due to economical reasons not because they love it. Things like Sugimoto are taking off too, there’s quiet some Sugimoto handle copies in the market due to chefs love them. TBH most western or Japanese chefs are using cheap knives too, most of Japanese professionals see Misonos as some of the higher end stuff, while in western kitchen Dexter and Vic are the main stay. (Funnily just last night a friend in professional Chinese kitchen asked me how I think of TF cleaver, he said he likes Aogami super because all the knife he got so far are too soft to stand up to long sessions of fine slicing)
xsmx13 said:
Damn, homie. What does something like that XinGuo run if you can actually get a hold of one?
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Depends on the steel, usually around 3000 rmb, the Damasteel one can run much higher tho.
 
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Chef Doom said:
I will recommend getting a cheapo $30 full sized cleaver first because both use and experience will be similar to a more expensive version depending on steel and craftsmanship. A good 30 days of continuous use will provide the love it or hate it result that will satisfy most people.
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I mean, you're probably right, but similar depends on your use case.

Will your cheapo make quick work of cutting celery and scallions and ginger into 1/8" slices? Sure. Will it do stuff like that for two weeks then happily cut 4 lbs of room-temperature pork loin into 1/10" slices? Probably not.
 
Rangen said:
I mean, you're probably right, but similar depends on your use case.

Will your cheapo make quick work of cutting celery and scallions and ginger into 1/8" slices? Sure. Will it do stuff like that for two weeks then happily cut 4 lbs of room-temperature pork loin into 1/10" slices? Probably not.
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It's not the 🔪, it's the sharpening stones. Do you even JNAT bro? 🤣🤣🤣
 
Chopper king aus-10 cuts nicely after a good thinning, tho its size and weight a bit awkward for me, it is really light for a 210x110 slicer, and the super thick spine out of the handle made it less front heavy than some other cleavers. (Still front heavy tho) As a result the front half of the blade does not have as much as momentum as I’d like. Personally I would love to be longer at 220-230 or slightly shorter at 90mm. It is still a good knife tho, the steel is not bad at all.
EE49A8E8-9812-4C58-8B94-8C5471F856EF.jpeg
 
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I ordered the mega-cheap cleaver from the Wok Shop that our friend @deltaplex mentioned.

I have been pondering dipping my toe into the cleaver world for some time and never pulled the trigger. As I've said a couple times on this thread, I just am not sure I'll actually like one.

Now, for $25 shipped? Well, yeah, that's a test that makes sense for me. I understand enough about knives to recognize shortcomings and what is causing them. No doubt the knife will come to me pretty rough and I'd guess a touch a thick so if it isn't sweet and slicey right off, I expect that. This is about the knife design, cutting style, and no-worries tinkering if I want to.

Now, if I suddenly find myself a devout member of the Cult of Cleaver, then the steps up the ladder that are often discussed here will be exciting possibilities. If not, then minimal wallet damage.

All good. :)
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
I ordered the mega-cheap cleaver from the Wok Shop that our friend @deltaplex mentioned.

I have been pondering dipping my toe into the cleaver world for some time and never pulled the trigger. As I've said a couple times on this thread, I just am not sure I'll actually like one.

Now, for $25 shipped? Well, yeah, that's a test that makes sense for me. I understand enough about knives to recognize shortcomings and what is causing them. No doubt the knife will come to me pretty rough and I'd guess a touch a thick so if it isn't sweet and slicey right off, I expect that. This is about the knife design, cutting style, and no-worries tinkering if I want to.

Now, if I suddenly find myself a devout member of the Cult of Cleaver, then the steps up the ladder that are often discussed here will be exciting possibilities. If not, then minimal wallet damage.

All good. :)
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I went into the store to check out that particular cleaver a couple years back. There was a good amount of variance, but overall, it did seem to be thicker than the CCK for better or for worse.
 
Chef Doom said:
It's not the 🔪, it's the sharpening stones. Do you even JNAT bro? 🤣🤣🤣
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Oh, no. Not me. If I got into JNats, I'd probably wind up with too many of them. I am wise and mature enough to avoid that fate.

No, you can't look in that closet. Don't look over at those file folder holders, either. Or at...you know, why don't you just close your eyes entirely.
 
Chef Doom said:
I'm not going to defend any particular post, but I will say that for the most part, this community more often than not tends to lean towards the better version of things. I like to warn people not to get caught up with the high end hype for the very fact that going more expensive or higher end isn't always the solution.

Plus when the average cost of a person's collection runs into the $200 or $300 dollar range, they just can't see the need to recommend a $50 knife. Especially when it comes to over seas delivery. Who wants to pay $50 shipping charges for a $40 knife?

Generally, those higher end Japanese made Cleavers that go past $150 generally came from a desire to have the larger cleaver profile with Japanese steel and craftmanship. Naturally this is a clash of knife crafting methodology and it is hard to ask a craftsman that makes a $1000 Yanagiba with Blue #2 to make a large Chinese Cleaver with the same steel and same crafting methods for $50.

Just my 2 Cents. Don't pay it any mind.
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Great reply! My earlier suggestion for this thread was to consider a broader spectrum of cleavers--specifically mentioning the Chinese cleavers offered through AliExpress. When challenged for an example, I described my experiences that led me to buy a Shibazi f208-2, and my surprise at how well it compared in appearance--even to my Japanese knives that have cost $300 +. I had been considering a Shun Classic cleaver (VG-10) and a Shun Kaji cleaver (sg-2) for $300-$500 before I looked more closely.

What I really wanted was a discussion of the many other Chinese cleavers listed that are not so well established as the Shibazi--like those offered by Xinzuo, Hezhen, Deng, and many others. Some of them use powder steel, or the Chinese version of VG-10--some use composite technology. Some cost $30--or less, while others cost in the range of $100. All ship free.

As a home cook, my needs for a large cleaver have already been used up by the Shibazi. I have purchased a smaller Xinzuo cleaver that is a slightly wider alternative to the Kai Seki Magoroku Nakiri I got in Japan and used for more than 30 years and did some further comparing in my home kitchen.

What I'm really hoping is that others explore, use, and evaluate these AliExpress cleavers.

So far, no takers.
 
In fairness, this thread will go where the majority of participants take it. Everyone here is aware of, or knows how to find, the lower end stuff and since those things don't really get talked about much, clearly the thread participants are interested in different levels.

Nothing at all wrong with that. There doesn't always need to be a counter.
 
drrayeye said:
Great reply! My earlier suggestion for this thread was to consider a broader spectrum of cleavers--specifically mentioning the Chinese cleavers offered through AliExpress. When challenged for an example, I described my experiences that led me to buy a Shibazi f208-2, and my surprise at how well it compared in appearance--even to my Japanese knives that have cost $300 +. I had been considering a Shun Classic cleaver (VG-10) and a Shun Kaji cleaver (sg-2) for $300-$500 before I looked more closely.

What I really wanted was a discussion of the many other Chinese cleavers listed that are not so well established as the Shibazi--like those offered by Xinzuo, Hezhen, Deng, and many others. Some of them use powder steel, or the Chinese version of VG-10--some use composite technology. Some cost $30--or less, while others cost in the range of $100. All ship free.

As a home cook, my needs for a large cleaver have already been used up by the Shibazi. I have purchased a smaller Xinzuo cleaver that is a slightly wider alternative to the Kai Seki Magoroku Nakiri I got in Japan and used for more than 30 years and did some further comparing in my home kitchen.

What I'm really hoping is that others explore, use, and evaluate these AliExpress cleavers.

So far, no takers.
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I’m just gonna reply one last time to you, Shibazi F-208-2 is a fine cleaver, many of us used it, it’s good but not interesting, there’s plenty of discussion before on here and Reddit, it’s good but not the focus of people here. I literally reviewed Xinzuo (which is the same brand as Hezhen) in another post and think they are ok yet you ignore it, I posted my review my Dengjia in this very thread, and brought some rare cleaver from China and you pretend I didn’t post ****. No body cares for Shun or most Seki factory knives in this thread or in this forum the same reason people don’t talk about AliExpress stuff, because they are not interesting. If you haven’t figure that out I feel sorry for you.
The only powder steel I’ve seen used on factory knives are 14Cr18CrMoVNB but only on knives that’s uninteresting to begin with, there’s few Chinese maker I trust with good HT of PM steel, none of them available on AliExpress. Oh the composite technology is just marketing ********, it’s Sanmai, literally 90% knives on here is Sanmai, it’s been done for centuries.
If you want to evaluate AliExpress stuff, go ahead I’m not stopping you, none of us are, you just derail pages of thread without any useful knowledge or insight and declare the thread uninteresting.
 
drrayeye said:
What I'm really hoping is that others explore, use, and evaluate these AliExpress cleavers.
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It is going to be a hard sell for most of us to go in that direction for various reasons but I will list the order of priorities you will normally find.

#1 - Craftsman
#2 - Steel
#3 - Vendor
#4 - Customization
#5 - Distribution Company & Network

I don't shop with AliExpress, but there is going to be a concern with trust, reputation and the recommendations of said products on these types of sites that is basically a collection of vendors.

I know the ad says it's Aogami Super, but is it really? Was that knife really hand forged and not just stamped? And where the hell are my handle options? :waiting:
 
blokey said:
I’m just gonna reply one last time to you, Shibazi F-208-2 is a fine cleaver, many of us used it, it’s good but not interesting, there’s plenty of discussion before on here and Reddit, it’s good but not the focus of people here. I literally reviewed Xinzuo (which is the same brand as Hezhen) in another post and think they are ok yet you ignore it, I posted my review my Dengjia in this very thread, and brought some rare cleaver from China and you pretend I didn’t post ****. No body cares for Shun or most Seki factory knives in this thread or in this forum the same reason people don’t talk about AliExpress stuff, because they are not interesting. If you haven’t figure that out I feel sorry for you.
The only powder steel I’ve seen used on factory knives are 14Cr18CrMoVNB but only on knives that’s uninteresting to begin with, there’s few Chinese maker I trust with good HT of PM steel, none of them available on AliExpress. Oh the composite technology is just marketing ********, it’s Sanmai, literally 90% knives on here is Sanmai, it’s been done for centuries.
If you want to evaluate AliExpress stuff, go ahead I’m not stopping you, none of us are, you just derail pages of thread without any useful knowledge or insight and declare the thread uninteresting.
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As usual, superficial and dismissive. We can all read about them, but someone needs to try one and report. The devil is in the details.

We are all different users, with different interests: nobody is an authority. I'm just a home cook who's discovered and enjoys Chinese cleavers--and likes to compare. You're a ???
 
Chef Doom said:
It is going to be a hard sell for most of us to go in that direction for various reasons but I will list the order of priorities you will normally find.

#1 - Craftsman
#2 - Steel
#3 - Vendor
#4 - Customization
#5 - Distribution Company & Network

I don't shop with AliExpress, but there is going to be a concern with trust, reputation and the recommendations of said products on these types of sites that is basically a collection of vendors.

I know the ad says it's Aogami Super, but is it really? Was that knife really hand forged and not just stamped? And where the hell are my handle options? :waiting:
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Yes, those are the issues. I really don't think the full spectrum of Chinese cleavers have been explored--AliExpress is just an example. I've glimpsed hints of others. You've shown great insight and I appreciate your patience.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
In fairness, this thread will go where the majority of participants take it. Everyone here is aware of, or knows how to find, the lower end stuff and since those things don't really get talked about much, clearly the thread participants are interested in different levels.

Nothing at all wrong with that. There doesn't always need to be a counter.
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I'm still lurking--and have learned much.


I'm not only referring to "lower end stuff." AliExpress, Amazon, and EBAY have identified higher end products that would be worth user reports--to me.
 
drrayeye said:
I'm still lurking--and have learned much.


I'm not only referring to "lower end stuff." AliExpress, Amazon, and EBAY have identified higher end products that would be worth user reports--to me.
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You aren't going to talk people into trying stuff that you're curious about just because you're curious about it. That's just unrealistic and a bit selfish. I can't tell if you're advocating for more vendor variation or actual cleaver variation. If you want to know about those things, you're going to have to try them and then report back to everyone else. That's how you can contribute that knowledge expansion to the broader group.

Once an option has been raised and the group has discussed it, then it's kinda over. The broader group has gotten enough knowledge to satisfy themselves and are no longer interested or if you're so committed to it, you will have to do the experimenting first hand.

Step out of this thread and into a general gyuto discussion and bring up knives from likes of AliExpress. I suspect you'll get the same reactions. Amazon and Ebay can be almost as polarizing.

None of that is wrong and I actually appreciate it. If a group of very knowledgeable and experienced folks acknowledge a brand/maker/vendor but still don't readily recommend them and give their reasons why, I respect that and find it quite informative. I've spent enough money experimenting on stuff I want to know if I like from trusted sources and recommended options without having to stray too far outside of them! :)
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
You aren't going to talk people into trying stuff that you're curious about just because you're curious about it. That's just unrealistic and a bit selfish. I can't tell if you're advocating for more vendor variation or actual cleaver variation. If you want to know about those things, you're going to have to try them and then report back to everyone else. That's how you can contribute that knowledge expansion to the broader group.

Once an option has been raised and the group has discussed it, then it's kinda over. The broader group has gotten enough knowledge to satisfy themselves and are no longer interested or if you're so committed to it, you will have to do the experimenting first hand.

Step out of this thread and into a general gyuto discussion and bring up knives from likes of AliExpress. I suspect you'll get the same reactions. Amazon and Ebay can be almost as polarizing.

None of that is wrong and I actually appreciate it. If a group of very knowledgeable and experienced folks acknowledge a brand/maker/vendor but still don't readily recommend them and give their reasons why, I respect that and find it quite informative. I've spent enough money experimenting on stuff I want to know if I like from trusted sources and recommended options without having to stray too far outside of them! :)
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I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything. I've purchased from a broad range of suppliers in a wide range of prices: both to develop my home cook collection and to do some side by side comparisons together with a Japanese collaborator.

Right now, I'm more interested in dual core knives than anything else.
 
drrayeye said:
I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything. I've purchased from a broad range of suppliers in a wide range of prices: both to develop my home cook collection and to do some side by side comparisons together with a Japanese collaborator.

Right now, I'm more interested in dual core knives than anything else.
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Okay well, I guess I'm really confused.

Best of luck.
 
drrayeye said:
You won't get any from me, but Chef Panko has already done quite a few:

Leung Tim, Shibazi, cck, Deng

https://www.chefpanko.com/
Ray
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If you want to purchase an assortment of them and send them to me, I'll gladly write a review for you.

I think this thread also lacks reviews of cleavers by other makers such as Jonas, Huber or kamon off the top of my head. So if you got any of those for me too, hit me up and I'll give you my shipping address.
 
tostadas said:
If you want to purchase an assortment of them and send them to me, I'll gladly write a review for you.

I think this thread also lacks reviews of cleavers by other makers such as Jonas, Huber or kamon off the top of my head. So if you got any of those for me too, hit me up and I'll give you my shipping address.
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I know that you do interesting projects by your posts, but I'm not a good collaborator. I buy about two kitchen knives a year, and my most recent two have been costly dual core--which fascinates me--not cleavers.
 
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