Big bad carbon boy - recommendation please

[Manwe]

Hello, everyone. I'm currently looking for long gyuto. I already have plenty of knives in various sizes, but I'm lacking very long gyuto / chef knife (270mm or more). I found three interesting models in my budget:


Kagayaki blue steel 2 270mm for $163

Kagayaki CarboNext extra wide 270mm for $160

Fujiwara FKH 270mm for 99$



LOCATION

Poland

KNIFE TYPE


Gyuto

Right handed

Handle doesn't matter

270mm blade

I would like carbon one

Max 180$ with shipment



KNIFE USE

For now - home use, but I'm planning to return to professional cooking after pandemic.

I intend this knife as a workhorse, when I have load of vegetables to chop, or when I'm making sauerkraut, or slicing large meat parts. If I go back for professional cooking I would like to use it as all purpose

It's replacing victorinox fibrox 10'. Victorinix sure is great knife but edge retention is meh and it's not carbon. I really love blade profile & thinnes of victoriniox. Obviously, I do not like handle.

Pinch grip

Push cut, Rocking, chop

I would definitely like better aesthetic. But simple wooden handle would be enough of improvement, in either style. I like cladding lines and so on, but it's not the budget for it.

I would like better edge retention. And I would like really thin blade behind edge (overall weight doesn't matter that much as I'm comfortable with Chinese cleavers weights)


KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Only wood boards.

Do you sharpen your own knives? Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? Yes. I would like to complete full set of shapton stones in the future. For now I have shapton kuromaku 1k, king 1k/6k, two nonames 400/1000/3000/9/8000 and cheap sic stones for thinning.

 

[Jovidah]

Technically speaking the carbonnext is semi-stainless. Kinda works like advertised; it sharpens like a carbon, without any reactivity.... but you're also going to miss out on any patina. I'm not sure either of these 3 qualifies for 'really thin behind the edge' out of the box.

 

[Manwe]

Technically speaking the carbonnext is semi-stainless. Kinda works like advertised; it sharpens like a carbon, without any reactivity.... but you're also going to miss out on any patina. I'm not sure either of these 3 qualifies for 'really thin behind the edge' out of the box.

If it's not too much (like changing whole blade geometry) I can probably handle some basic thinning. But I would like to avoid thinning from german-like thick blade (I will need to do all the job by hand).

Also, good point on carboNext - but I can live without patina. What's made me interest in this particular model is its wideness - 70mm looks like a lot. Normally I would just go for Fujiwara, but that's looks like interesting profile.

Edit: there is choil shot from jck website on carboNext EW:

Are anyone able to tell more based on this photo?

 

[Benuser]

The FKH is a very decent knife for little money. Please be aware of VAT and handling fees, depending on the scrutiny of your local customs.

 

[btbyrd]

It may not quite be what you're looking for, but a vintage Sabatier might be a good choice. Softer carbon, but they still sharpen easily and can be steeled back to life with little effort. Great profile too.

 

[Jason183]

I won’t recommend the steel used in FKH(SK4), too reactive, and has very strong smell after gaining patina compared to other carbon steel I’ve tried, if you don’t mind that smell in your food then it’s a reasonable knife for beginners or practice sharpening with.

 

[Manwe]

@btbyrd I must say, I thought about it. But how much of upgrade will be sabatier from victorinox? Apart of course from"coolness factor". I definitely want to get some k Sab or four star in the future, but I don't know if it's right moment

@Jason183 will this be still issue after forcing multiple layers of strong platina? I. e. From hot white vinegar?

@Benuser I'm still kinda newbie when it comes to choil shot. Can you tell me "what I'm seeing"? Also, how does that compare to choil shot of thi particular CarboNext?

 

[Benuser]

I won’t recommend the steel used in FKH(SK4), too reactive, and has very strong smell after gaining patina compared to other carbon steel I’ve tried, if you don’t mind that smell in your food then it’s a reasonable knife for beginners or practice sharpening with.

That used to be a problem some time ago. The typical sulfur smell went away only after forcing a patina. Tolerances have been reduced in the Japanese industrial standards, since. The FKHs I've seen these last years don't have this particular 'feature' any longer.

 

[spaceconvoy]

That used to be a problem some time ago. The typical sulfur smell went away only after forcing a patina. Tolerances have been reduced in the Japanese industrial standards, since. The FKHs I've seen these last years don't have this particular 'feature' any longer.

Is that the reason? I was just about to say that SK steel can be very good and minimally reactive. I thought it was the skill of the heat treatment, vs some new steel formulation.

 

[Benuser]

@Benuser I'm still kinda newbie when it comes to choil shot. Can you tell me "what I'm seeing"? Also, how does that compare to choil shot of thi particular CarboNext?

No great fan of reading a choil shot, as often blades are thicker at the last centimeter from the heel. If there's an upswing as with mine they look thicker as well. Just added it to show it isn't particularly fat behind the edge. I won't comment the Carbonext picture as I don't know the blade, and it isn't really focused on the edge.

 

[Alder26]

I’ve been eye ballin’ Suein VC 270 for this kinda job

 

[Jason183]

That used to be a problem some time ago. The typical sulfur smell went away only after forcing a patina. Tolerances have been reduced in the Japanese industrial standards, since. The FKHs I've seen these last years don't have this particular 'feature' any longer.

If that’s the case then it might be game changer. That’s the only concern I have about FKH, other than that, it’s good knife, very tough and easy to sharpen.

I can’t remember the timeline, I think it was from 2-3 years ago, the Sulfur smell came right after I did the forced patina with mustard and vinegar. I was comparing to the Masamoto KS(white #2), these are the only two knives I did the forced patina with.

 

[Benuser]

I have to correct about the sulfur smell with old FKHs: it took not only forcing a patina, but a few months of time as well before it calmed down a bit. We are speaking about some ten years ago, if not more.
Absolutely no such a thing with more recent ones.

 

[aaamax]

It may not quite be what you're looking for, but a vintage Sabatier might be a good choice. Softer carbon, but they still sharpen easily and can be steeled back to life with little effort. Great profile too.

You are right and often a bargain price. Once you get used to the profile, it's terrific. Can't remember which Sabatier maker was better, but I think the ones with the elephants were of choice. I had a broken bakelite handle on one and ground down the tang and put on a Wa handle. I suggest grinding down the finger guard as well, but not necessary.
A breeze to put a keen edge on.

 

[Manwe]

I can get elephant sabatier for the same price as the fkm. Will this be a better choice?

 

[aaamax]

I can get elephant sabatier for the same price as the fkm. Will this be a better choice?

I wouldn't buy a new one. Find an old one in carbon as opposed to stainless (assuming that is what it is if it is new) and not spend over 40e/50$. There are a lot of them out there and sometimes the price is too high for the demand.
10" is a classic and handles real well (is about a 255mm). You can find 14" as well, they're monsters.

 

[Qapla']

What do you think of this?

https://www.korin.com/HSU-HCGY-270

 

[Benuser]

About buying a modern Sab: I didn't know you were looking for a project knife.
A new, carbon Sab is likely to have serious QC issues. Not being straight, having warps and overgrinds, the Thiers-Issard (6 étoiles) even more than the K-Sabatier. Expect them to come with a little lip at the heel meant for particularly rough tasks, but hindering the use of the blade other than at the border of the cutting board.
The fingerguard they come with is no big problem if you're used to it, otherwise its maintenance is rather tricky.
The steel of the new ones is even softer than with good vintages. Expect very frequent touch-ups.
I would not buy it on distance and ask the retailer to sharpen it so I can see warps and overgrinds before deciding.
The only reason to choose a modern Sab would be for sentimental reasons. They seem close to the original ones that have been a model for the entire world. Be aware though that modern are heavier and no longer have the spectacular distal taper they were once known for. Modern ones come with a higher tip and more belly.
You asked for a 270mm. French makers have 250 and 300. The price should be considerably below that of a FKH, if you take in account the VAT and handling fees you're going to pay for import from Japan.
https://www.sabatier-k.com/cuisine-25-cm-acier-carbone.html

 

[Manwe]

What do you think of this?

https://www.korin.com/HSU-HCGY-270

With shipping to Poland & customs it will probably go up to 230$

The best thing about JCK is that they send packages to Poland in a way that custom won't be usually charged (marking products as a gift of lower value, shipment through EMS). With free shipping from newsletter I'm basically almost sure to pay what is on the website and nothing more (already tested). So for me FKH really cost only 100$

@Benuser what do you mean by project knife?

Getting used one is extremely difficult in Poland as they are rare, and I can't find good auction service in France but I will be on lookout!

That's being said, I can basically get FKH for 100$ and be on lookout for 250mm or 300mm sabatier for around 50$ and still be in the budget. Is it good option?

 

[Bart.s]

If I was looking for a 270mm full carbon, this would be on my list:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-180mm-to-360mm-8-sizes?variant=8134572146785
The 270 dragon sells for $200, so only $20 over budget.

 

[Benuser]

@Benuser what do you mean by project knife?

A knife that requires a lot of work to be done before it can be used. More than just give it a good sharpening with some thinning to get rid of the usually poor factory edge.
In the case of a lot of Sabs, it means removing the lip at the heel and adapting the fingerguard after that, if not correcting the entire profile. Quite a delicate work.
The kind of work I do like a lot. But when buying a brand new knife you should be aware of what it involves.

 

[Jason183]

Don’t know if you’re interested at stainless clad knives or not, I have two 270mm low budget Gyuto and Sujihiki( Kohetsu blue #2 western handle at 62HRC from CKTG) as my beater for everything including cutting through bones(do require sharpening at higher angle to prevent micro chipping) I always grab them when comes to abusive tasks.
They’re my workhorse at prep, and only $115 each. Superior edge retention compared to previous beater knives I’ve tried(FKH,FKM,Misono UX10,Tojiro DP), also easy to sharpen, much easier than Tojiro DP. Fit and finish not great, if you can get over that cheap looking handle, then it’s very solid knife around that price range.

 

[Manwe]

If I was looking for a 270mm full carbon, this would be on my list:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-180mm-to-360mm-8-sizes?variant=8134572146785
The 270 dragon sells for $200, so only $20 over budget.

I must say, I'm finding this dragon engraving little disturbing, like, let's say, spoilers on cars (it's only my personal feeling about that, please don't be offended!). That being said, how much of improvement will be that one in comparison to FKH? I can live with dragon, if it's that much better!

@Benuser Thanks for clarification! I currently have three such "project knives" so I would like something that won't require more than 2-3 hours of work ootb.

@Jason183 I like knife you're proposing very much. I found this knife on CKTG. There's no shipment to Poland, and even if I write to them, I think the shipping cost will be the same as for Germany - 50$. Considering tax and customs it will cost me about 220$ and it's over my budget. Even if I can go with that, I'm wondering if that's knife is worth basically double price?

 

[Bart.s]

I must say, I'm finding this dragon engraving little disturbing, like, let's say, spoilers on cars (it's only my personal feeling about that, please don't be offended!). That being said, how much of improvement will be that one in comparison to FKH? I can live with dragon, if it's that much better!

Why should I be offended? No need to excuse yourself for your preference .

There is also a non-dragon on JCK but not available at the moment. There are some verdors who carry Misono in Europe, perhaps better luck there.

I don't have personal experience with the Misono carbon. It's on my 'to try' list. From what I've read, they are pretty well liked, but perhaps other members can tell you more about the steel. I do, however, have a Misono 440 gyuto. It was my first Japanese gyuto. I still like it a lot. Not very tall, but the grinds are good and very nice F&F for the price.

 

[spaceconvoy]

There is also a non-dragon on JCK but not available at the moment.

Any knife like that with multiple versions that are "unavailable," like left-handed or un-engraved, and you have to contact JCK directly. Don't bother waiting, it'll never show up on their site. That's how I got my santoku without the flower engraving, only took maybe two extra days to ship.

 

[Benuser]

Comparing Misono Swedish and FKH:
The Misono come with an exceptional Fit&Finish at this price point. Very comfortable handle. Steel very finely grained. Will benefit from a high polishing. FKH comes with a a basic, decent F&F. Steel coarsely grained. Delivers some extra bite. Hardness of both is similar, around 59Rc.
The Misono factory edge is weak and overly convexed by factory buffering. Following the existing edge is no good idea. Needs a bit of work, starting with a medium-coarse stone, and some thinning to begin with.
The FKH factory edge is indifferent. Removing it will take much less work than with the Misono.
The Misono comes with a very elegant but vulnerable spear point tip. The FKH one is lower, and therefore less likely to get damaged.
The brands have a different pricing policy: with the Misono, price will rapidly increase with the size. Not so with Fujiwara: differences are insignificant. So, with a large size, the FKH provides much better value.

 

[Bart.s]

The Misono factory edge is weak and overly convexed by factory buffering.

This was also my experience with Misono. The OOTB edge is nothing to write home about, but something a quick bevel resetting will fix.

EDIT: note that the Misono's have an asymmetrical edge, to sharpen:

 

[spaceconvoy]

The Misono come with an exceptional Fit&Finish at this price point.

I used to think so too, but I feel like something changed last year. Maybe cause they're making knives at a furious rate to keep up with pandemic demand?

I bought two Misono moly last summer that were fine. In the last two months I bought UX10 and 440 petties, and both had tangs you can feel protruding from the pakkawood. The bolster on the 440 was weakly ground, not a full radius, just a dumb wedge of metal.

I used to recommend Misono as a better budget-knife option because of the fit and finish, but now I'm not so sure. Could just be bad luck.

 

[Jason183]

@Jason183 I like knife you're proposing very much. I found this knife on CKTG. There's no shipment to Poland, and even if I write to them, I think the shipping cost will be the same as for Germany - 50$. Considering tax and customs it will cost me about 220$ and it's over my budget. Even if I can go with that, I'm wondering if that's knife is worth basically double price?

My bad, IDK why I thought you were from Portland, so yeah shipping cost can be a problem to Europe, liked you said, JCK might be best bet.

 

[Benuser]

View attachment 125396
I used to think so too, but I feel like something changed last year. Maybe cause they're making knives at a furious rate to keep up with pandemic demand?

I bought two Misono moly last summer that were fine. In the last two months I bought UX10 and 440 petties, and both had tangs you can feel protruding from the pakkawood. The bolster on the 440 was weakly ground, not a full radius, just a dumb wedge of metal.

I used to recommend Misono as a better budget-knife option because of the fit and finish, but now I'm not so sure. Could just be bad luck.

That’s quite disturbing. I have seen tens of new Misonos, in all series, and tended to believe you may order them blindly, as their QC worked so well.