Covid: the shape of things to come

[Barmoley]

I personally do not see experts discussing amongst peers as arguing or disagreeing/fighting, usually there are different view points. The whole science around this pandemic is not that black and white and the countermeasures are found in a largish gray zone where an optimum needs to found between tolerability and effectivity.

Maybe fighting is an incorrect term, but it sure feels like it when they just twit over each other. When they used to discuss behind close doors and laymen just saw the end result it felt more legit to most. I am not advocating for information to be unavailable to all, just illustrating why it is difficult even for well educated to determine whom to listen to.

 

[ian]

When they used to discuss behind close doors and laymen just saw the end result it felt more legit to most.

That might be more a function of the media attention, unless I’m missing something specific. (If you’re saying a lot of people are tweeting at each other, idk anything about the public health twitter world so you can ignore this post.) Anyway, a lot of scientific disagreements happen out in the open, it’s just that noone usually cares.

 

[MarcelNL]

If I'm not misstaken I recall that the whole cholesterol/carb thingy was created by the old fashioned 'influencers' then called lobbyists for the meat industry and politicians/folks put in places by that weird system of political appointees, not because the data was not available.

 

[Barmoley]

That might be more a function of the media attention, unless I’m missing something specific. A lot of scientific disagreements happen out in the open, it’s just that noone usually cares.

It is a function of the media and more specifically social media. How would you know about disagreements of 2 physicists unless you were in the field? Major discoveries or decisions would get picked up or put in books, so if an outsider would start researching the subject they would most of the time just see the end result. Now politicians, scientists, doctors twit seemingly as soon as a thought occurs in their head. With covid being a very hot topic obviously, it feels like the public is getting information before it is ready. This is one of the reasons many are confused and don't know whom to trust.

 

[MarcelNL]

"the public' should put some more trust in panels of scientist to argue all aspects through to reach a consensus...it's what often happens in scientific meetings, a panel discussion with 'pro and con' for arguments sake....very informative and usually consensus is reached even there where you'd not expect it from the beginning!

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Not saying it was a conspiracy at the time obesity was thought to be related to fat content & calories. It was just not the case.

Agree it's not all black & white. To a large extent
public school is babysitting. Many households both parents work.

Here wealthy send kids to private schools % wise Hi. has more private schools. Although a couple
private Catholic schools have closed for good
because of covid. Even before Covid they were losing money.

I went to public school in 1950's & 60's. I was bullied and had to toughen up. Even if you take a beating they wouldn't bother you anymore. Got a decent education.

It's different now the world has changed a lot.
Come from a book culture still like to check out
books from library.

Two of my sister's were teachers public schools
I know here some teachers go out of their way
without extra pay to teach & provide supplies for the poor kids. The DOE here is centralized in charge of all public schools in the State. It's a challenge.

Watched my niece homeschool her kids during
Covid shutdown. A lot was done on computer.
Streaming has enabled more people to work at home & tools are there for kids to learn.




.

 

[LostHighway]

"the public' should put some more trust in panels of scientist to argue all aspects through to reach a consensus...it's what often happens in scientific meetings, a panel discussion with 'pro and con' for arguments sake....very informative and usually consensus is reached even there where you'd not expect it from the beginning!

Unfortunately, it seems that at least in the USA (I suspect true of the EU and Britian as well) bureaucrats are drawn into the equation. Case in point might be the recent FDA approval of the Biogen Alzheimer's drug aducanumab which had a very contentious approval process. Three FDA committee members resigned over the approval.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Never expected to see cases go up so fast in
December. We will see what new year brings.

Even though two shots & booster we are taking
it serious Masking, washing hands, using Disinfecting gel.

Don't want another shut down we have to learn to work through this.

 

[MarcelNL]

Unfortunately, it seems that at least in the USA (I suspect true of the EU and Britian as well) bureaucrats are drawn into the equation. Case in point might be the recent FDA approval of the Biogen Alzheimer's drug aducanumab which had a very contentious approval process. Three FDA committee members resigned over the approval.

Sure, when FDA approvals are at stake anything goes..I was referring to 'panels of scientists' in general.
I have witnessed a unanimous vote by the scientific panel ignored by FDA from quite close up.

EDIT: and the vote of the panel was FOR the product....

 

[Barmoley]

Never expected to see cases go up so fast in
December. We will see what new year brings.

Even though two shots & booster we are taking
it serious Masking, washing hands, using Disinfecting gel.

Don't want another shut down we have to learn to work through this.

You should, so far it seems like booster protection against getting omicron vanes fast pretty low after 10 weeks. Most likely protects against severe desease longer. Because many will get omicron, hopefully it is less severe and will provide some meaningful protection against other variants.

 

[chefwp]

It is a function of the media and more specifically social media.

Wouldn't it be nice if 'the media' returned to its very valuable role in society as the fourth estate providing a valuable framing and summarizing issues and politics while being an advocate for the public good. There is media I still trust to do that by and large, but they are flawed institutions as they always have been, but the combination of mass consolidation and the allegiance to chasing ratings for advertising dollars worries me.
It has been on the slide for a while. I remember in the 90s when it was still being publicly debated whether or not vaccines played a part in causing autism, you could count on CNN to inform the public by relying on panels of experts like a neurological research scientist on one side and Jenny McCarthy on the other, her credentials being that she was a Playboy centerfold and was married to a Hollywood celebrity. And of course her viewpoint got a lot more play because she was louder and angrier. SMDH

 

[user 16756]

Wouldn't it be nice if 'the media' returned to its very valuable role in society as the fourth estate providing a valuable framing and summarizing issues and politics while being an advocate for the public good. There is media I still trust to do that by and large, but they are flawed institutions as they always have been, but the combination of mass consolidation and the allegiance to chasing ratings for advertising dollars worries me.
It has been on the slide for a while. I remember in the 90s when it was still being publicly debated whether or not vaccines played a part in causing autism, you could count on CNN to inform the public by relying on panels of experts like a neurological research scientist on one side and Jenny McCarthy on the other, her credentials being that she was a Playboy centerfold and was married to a Hollywood celebrity. And of course her viewpoint got a lot more play because she was louder and angrier. SMDH

I agree the media needs to be WAY more critical. it's not just COVID right now, loads of these places are uncritically reporting literally made up stories about how "crime is up" when across the country there is just incontrovertible evidence that it's down. or the latest Tesla "advance" that is literally just a PR press release. or how "China" (insert whatever boogieman you want here).

my personal joke is that if I ever feel like someone has aggrieved me and I get asked on cable news to immediately apologize to that person because there is now a huge likelihood that I am in fact the villain in the story.

 

[Michi]

you could count on CNN to inform the public by relying on panels of experts like a neurological research scientist on one side and Jenny McCarthy on the other

This is the kind of false balance that should have no place in media. We don't balance the meteorologist who delivers the weather report with someone who reads the tea leaves, either.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Here we have a pretty half Vietnamese half White well curved meteorologist.

That's NBC liberal news network

Then Fox channel Conservative started by muti media mega billions Rupert Murdoch.

Sometimes watch NHK world news & news on
PBS station.

 

[Barmoley]

This is the kind of false balance that should have no place in media. We don't balance the meteorologist who delivers the weather report with someone who reads the tea leaves, either.

Well, in this particular case they are about equal…….I kid, I kid

 

[juice]

Wouldn't it be nice if 'the media' returned to its very valuable role in society as the fourth estate providing a valuable framing and summarizing issues and politics while being an advocate for the public good.

Next, we talk about how to fund this, because that's the real problem. Eyeballs go to the loud and (usually) ignorant, not the thoughtful who aren't shouting.

 

[MarcelNL]

there are plenty of countries with publicly funded independent TV stations, not everything needs to be ruled by 'capitalism'; Germany, Netherlands, UK, etc you'd be surprised what those can produce even if not even that ensures total balance nor can it rule out all influence but still.

 

[MarcelNL]

Oh and those publicly funded stations are nowadays accompanied by commercial stations....I do not watch much TV to begin with but I avoid the commercial stations all together.

 

[juice]

there are plenty of countries with publicly funded independent TV stations, not everything needs to be ruled by 'capitalism'; Germany, Netherlands, UK, etc you'd be surprised what those can produce even if not even that ensures total balance nor can it rule out all influence but still.

Yes, and they're widely watched, I'm sure, same as the Govt-funded TV/radio down here. And no, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[chefwp]

Next, we talk about how to fund this, because that's the real problem.

Agree, right now I have two digital subscriptions to national newspapers, the Washington Post and the New York Times. I don't need both, it is redundant. I grew up reading the Post so that is where my eyes mostly remain, but I toss the Times some money really because I want them to keep doing what they do, I think it is important. Neither paper is perfect, they have issues (some puns are intentional!), but they are decent and have been for a while. I was really concerned when Bezos bought a majority stake in the Post, but since then they have remained steady. The Post has a reputation for being liberal. My opinion is that is true when it comes to their editorial board, so if you are reading an op-ed and it is signed "the editorial board" there is a good chance it will be left-leaning. However, they fill their op-ed pages with a variety of voices from both the right and the left and their regular news I find to be unbiased for the most part.

I don't consume much TV news, other than digital print I mostly listen to NPR which I find informative and mostly unbiased.

 

[MarcelNL]

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/30/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

 

[Barmoley]

Yeah, pretty much everyone I know has someone sick or test positive. All are vaccinated. So far fortunately no hospitalizations.

 

[MarcelNL]

same here, cases are running rampant....well, the situation is pretty much global I guess, a small delay here or there.

 

[ian]

We were trying to organize a very small outdoor midafternoon Dec 31 gathering, but noone can come because they’re “quarantining due to covid exposure”. Are people looking for an excuse because I’m a boring party host, or is there like a pandemic or something?

 

[Barmoley]

We were trying to organize a very small outdoor midafternoon Dec 31 gathering, but noone can come because they’re “quarantining due to covid exposure”. Are people looking for an excuse because I’m a boring party host, or is there like a pandemic or something?

One does not preclude the other, so impossible to say

 

[Keith Sinclair]

We will have a rainy new year. See if it dampens all the illegal fireworks in our area.

I'll cook dinner we will stay in got a bottle of champagne.

 

[gregfisk]

My wife and I are also in quarantine waiting for my nephew to get his Covid test back. He decided that it was a good idea to come here not feeling well and get a rapid test after dropping off my sister and niece. This is after a 1.5 hour drive together mask less. This was on Christmas Eve so of course he couldn’t get a test. I didn’t have the heart to send them home so we all wore masks and kept our distance. I think we’re okay after 6 days but still don’t know for sure whether we were exposed or not.

 

[ReiHamono]

"And what we mean by that: If a child goes into the hospital, they automatically get tested for COVID and they get counted as a COVID-hospitalized individual, when, in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that. So it’s over counting the number of children who are, quote, hospitalized with COVID as opposed to because of COVID," said Fauci.

Exactly what I’ve been telling you

This is the same with all of the adults that have been going in for the last two years as being diagnosed WITH Covid

The distinction when they say WITH, has to do with what the primary causes of death was. When they describe someone that has died WITH Covid it means they died from another cause but were Covid positive.

At all hospitals there are two different billing codes, one is for someone dying from Covid, the second is somebody dying WITH Covid

There’s a very important reason why there’s a distinction, if it was the same thing there would be zero distinction

 

[gregfisk]

"And what we mean by that: If a child goes into the hospital, they automatically get tested for COVID and they get counted as a COVID-hospitalized individual, when, in fact, they may go in for a broken leg or appendicitis or something like that. So it’s over counting the number of children who are, quote, hospitalized with COVID as opposed to because of COVID," said Fauci.

Exactly what I’ve been telling you

This is the same with all of the adults that have been going in for the last two years as being diagnosed WITH Covid

The distinction when they say WITH, has to do with what the primary causes of death was. When they describe someone that has died WITH Covid it means they died from another cause but were Covid positive.

At all hospitals there are two different billing codes, one is for someone dying from Covid, the second is somebody dying WITH Covid

There’s a very important reason why there’s a distinction, if it was the same thing there would be zero distinction

And somehow this matters because?

 

[Barmoley]

And somehow this matters because?

It matters because it changes the narrative. Mostly though because you need accurate numbers when you make policy decisions. How severe or deadly covid is makes a difference, so knowing how many people die or are hospitalized due to it matters.

For example, we need to know how severe omicron variant is. How can you know this if you don't know how many people are hospitalized due to omicron vs having omicron when they happen to be hospitalized for any other reason? Omicron is very contagious even to vaccinated, so it is very likely that a hospitalized individual will test positive for it. It also seems to be mild, but how can we really tell if there is no distinction? During cold season if a person ended up in a hospital and was found to have a cold, would they be counted as being hospitalized due to cold? What about flu?

For almost 2 years people who raised the concern that there has to be a distinction for accurate accounting and decision making were called people haters, antivaxxers, etc and in general were attacked. Now, Fauci says the same thing, how can it not matter?